Personal soapbox time!


Ok, so I may have inadvertantly stirred up a bit of a hornet’s nest on the Caelestrasz forums by making an innocent suggestion that our realm should have a separate progression ladder that only included self-proclaimed 10 man guilds.


Someone created a thread to discuss the phenomenon of 25man raiders bragging about 10mans being so easy that you can do them while drunk, etc. Going slightly off-topic, I said that it was a bit unfair for the 10man list to be full of 25man guilds, and that 10 man guilds should have a more meaningful progression list, because that is their sole channel of progression.


I originally stated that I thought it was a little unfair for the 10 man “progression” list to be full of 25man guilds, but the valid point was made that kills are kills and some of the 10 hardmodes are.. hard, so 25man guilds should still get credit. And I do agree with that – I don’t want to stop the larger guilds from displaying all of their trophies, be they 25man bosses, 10 man bosses, or various achievements.


But I still think that a “pure” ten man list would be good to have, so that the smaller guilds can gauge their progress against like guilds.



But what’s a “pure” 10 man guild?


This is where it started to get a bit dumb, in my opinion.


People started quoting GuildOx and saying that if we wanted a 10 man ladder, we’d have to stick to these “rules”. Have you ever seen their “strict” 10 man rules? These are the kind of things that people on my realm want to enforce for anyone to be included on the ten man ladder:



What are the 10-man ‘strict’ rankings?


We recognize that 25-man guilds or guilds that regularly participate in 25m pug runs have a distinct advantage since they run 10-man content with higher iLevel gear. Consequently, our 10-man strict rankings aim to exclude guilds that access any 25-man content that offers higher ilvl gear than what the current 10-man normal content provides. If your guild members regularly run 25man pugs then you are not considered a 10-man strict guild.

Translation: nobody in the guild is allow to have fun on weekends and run PuGs. Y’know, like the majority of people like to do.

What is the 10-man ‘strict’ criteria?


Guilds will be required to not earn any Coliseum 25 normal kills or any Ulduar 25 hard-mode kills.


Normally guilds will earn these 25m kill achievements when either 10 players complete a kill in the same raid or when 15 players complete the kill over time. We have added a special trigger for the Coliseum that will exclude a guild from strict rankings when 5 players achieve any boss kill in the same raid or a total of 10 players achieve it over time.
…
Please ensure you discourage your guild members from participating in any Coliseum 25 and Ulduar 25 hard-mode runs if you wish to remain on the strict rankings. Also be sure minimize the recruitment of players that have previously achieved these kills since they will contribute to the guild total, regardless of when they achieved it.

Last weekend, about 5 or 6 of us did a TOC PuG. We didn’t finish the instance in the end, but if we had, our realm would no longer allow us to be on the 10 man progression ladder.


I can definitely agree with the hard modes – people don’t usually PuG hard modes (nor would I want to attempt them in a PuG). If people in your 10 man guild start getting 25man hard modes.. I would smell a rat. But 25man TOC normal? Come on – so many people PuG that for fun. Now we’re not allowed to if we want to be included on the ladder?


No weekend PuGs ever, and don’t even think about inviting friends who have retired from hardmode raiding and want to chill with you and do tens, because their raiding history could end up costing you your place on the ladder.


Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with GuildOx having these strict rules – some people do want to see a strict listing of the guilds who are actually killing bosses using only the gear available to them in 10 mans.


But the players on my realm (mostly 25man raiders, interestingly..) are basically saying, “It’s not worth having a list – just go check GuildOx if you want to know the ladder.” I’ve half a mind to say exactly the same to them – why do YOU have a listing on the realm forum? Why don’t YOU just go check GuildOx to see your ranking?


Is it such a massive stretch of the imagination that 10 man guilds would like to compare themselves to other 10 man guilds?



My crazy definition of a 10 man guild is..


a guild that:

  1. advertises and recruits as a 10 man guild;

  2. runs 10 man raids in sanctioned raid times;
  3. does NOT run 25man raids in-guild (pugs excepted).

I know, it’s pretty revolutionary – try to wrap your head around it for a few minutes. A 10 man guild is a guild that says, “We’re a 10 man raiding guild!”


But evidently, it seems that you are not allowed to claim 10 man kills if you do PuGs, have retired hardcore members with achievements, or even if you wear badge gear.



Why the huge opposition?


I don’t understand why people are so opposed to allowing the 10 man guilds to have their own listing, so that if someone comes to the server looking for a small guild or wondering what our 10 man guilds are currently up to, they can look at a list that isn’t basically a duplication of the 25man list. It’s not even about “winning” on the ladder, I would just like to see a list of 10 man guilds and what they are progressing through.


I’ve no doubt in my mind that many of the 25man raiders think I’m just wailing because I’m no longer a 25man raider and I want some glory – but honestly, I’m not about “winning” anymore. I genuinely think this would be a good thing to have – for all of the 10 mans.


Sometimes I feel like I’m speaking in another tongue or something though.


So few people understand what I am actually getting at, it seems. Some do, saying things like “10man guilds highly value 10man kills as real progression, maybe because they dont want to venture into 25mans or dont have the numbers to do so, however with the way this expansion has been moving both guild types have been able to successfully move onto each tier dungeon raid whilst maintaining their goal.” and “It’s like having a heavyweight come into my (bantamweight) division and clearing house and claiming dominance. You have your own weight class for a reason, your record is reflective of that weight class.”


It’s a relief to know that a couple of people can interpret my psycho-babble. But so many people are vehemently opposed to a 10 man list (mostly 25 man raiders) and I find it so disheartening. It’s not about ilvls, it’s about your guild philosophy, size, and what raids you run! It’s so simple – yet it seems like such a huge deal.


The arguments, in my mind, are so weak.


You can’t claim legit kills if you’re wearing the same gear as 25mans have access to (badges, PuG gear). If you PuG TOC25, you’ll be wearing the same gear as a 25man guild.
How on earth can anyone think that running a PuG on a weekend and MAYBE being lucky enough to pick up a piece of loot each week (most PuGs have a one-per-run rule), that puts you A) anywhere near the 25man guilds, and B) at a distinct advantage over someone who doesn’t?


Hardmodes, maybe – but I’m going to replace this chestpiece I got in a PuG with badges from 5 man dungeons. Everyone can gear themseves with Conquest and Triumph loot over time. The only “distinct advantage”, as I see it, would be from doing 25 hardmodes and collecting *that* gear.


If all you do is 10 mans, you should be high on the list anyway, we only do this in our spare time.
Skill, as always, trumps gear, but if anyone tells you that a 25man guild kitted out in 25man hardmode gear won’t generally have an easier time and go faster than a 10 man guild in 10man gear and a smattering of badge/PuG gear, then I want some of whatever they’re smoking.


Sure, you would expect a guild doing 20hrs a week to progress further than another guild doing 2hrs a week, despite being in lower gear – but this happens in ALL tier ladders, and you can’t really try to make meaningful comparisons. Just as we can now breeze through heroics barely trying (where back as fresh 80s they were difficult and took much longer), I’m going to go out on a limb and say that a 25man, hardmode-geared guild is going to have an easier time in 10mans and therefore not require as much time to chip away at them.


There’s already a list of 10 man guild contacts, why do we need another one?
We already have a list of 25 man guild contacts, why do we need another one with progress listed? See what I did there?

If someone wants to know who the most progressed 25man guilds are on the server, they look to the 25man progression post. If they want to know who the most progressed 10 man guilds are, they have to wade through about 15-20 of the same 25man guilds to try to find the 10s.

Is it really that hard to understand that a proper 10 man list would be more meaningful? Not to mention make the 10 man guilds feel like they don’t always have to compete against the 25mans?


Nobody ever complained before/There’s not enough interest.
I like this one. Nobody ever thought to improve the system, so why improve it now? Of course, makes sense. Truth is, few people probably thought to speak up. A few 10 man raiders have already said that they didn’t think of it or that they had thought about it but hadn’t said anything. They aren’t vocal like me ;) Plus I also think that some guilds may look at the 10 man list, see it full of about 15-20 large guilds, and think, “why bother”. Maybe if there was a “real” 10 man list, they would be more keen to have their kills listed.


It would be complicated and extra work.
If there’s not many guilds, as everyone keeps saying, then how could it be very much work? I counted about a dozen 10 man guilds at a glance that would be on the list – how much work can it be to maintain a list of 12 guilds? Plus, I offered to help out and do it myself if it was too much. That didn’t go down so well.


You’ve only been a 10 man raider for a week, now suddenly it’s a big issue?
This is something I’ve been thinking about since back when I did my post on linear progression and people commented about 10man guilds getting screwed over. But becoming a 10 man raider did bring it back to the fore. Even so – what should it matter how long we’ve been around? We’re a 10 man guild, we’re raiding – how is it that we are less deserving to display our prograss than anyone else?


Hey, I’m not going to lie – going back to being a 10 man guild (I was in a 10 man guild at the start of TBC) does open your eyes up to how it feels to be in the tier of raiding that struggles to be accepted as “real raiding”.


25s are the professional sporting teams, and we’re kicking a ball around in the backyard, daydreaming about one day growing up and being just like them. Well, I suspect that’s probably what a lot of raiders think – that we’re only doing 10s because we can’t do 25s for some reason. In truth, I have zero interest in running 25s now (other than the occasional PuG). I’m loving 10s.


I just wish more people could see that this is real raiding to us – and why can’t we have a ladder that ranks us against others in our bracket?



Take it off. Take it alllllll off!


I’m just so frustrated, disappointed. Why do the 25man raiders find it so hard to understand that we want to bump up against other 10s, and that gear does not dictate whether you are a 10 man guild or not?


Nobody ever says to the 25man raiders that they can’t claim those 10 man kills because they were decked out in Uld25 hardmode gear. But if a 10man raider pipes up and says “I’d like to be able to see 10 mans against 10 mans on a ladder”, apparently we have to strip off all of our badge gear and PuG epics before we’re allowed to stake a claim to any kills. Huh?


Excuse the hyperbole, but everyone’s quick to point out the enormous injustice of a 10 man guild doing 25man PuGs and trying to claim progression against 10s that don’t PuG. But in the same breath people will also say that those puggers are now in the same gear bracket as the 25man guilds, many of which are running hardmodes in Ulduar and TOC, every week – and that’s fair.


My brain hurts.


If 10 man raiders want to be counted on a separate list, they have to take off 25man gear, because the only reason you would be on a separate list is if you’re super hardcore dedicated and you do everything in 10man ilvl gear, because that’s how nature intended. Nothing to do wtih the fact that you run a TEN MAN GUILD and would like to be on a ladder with other ten man guilds. Evidently it’s all about the ilvls and achievements, and that is what defines us.


I feel like back when I was vegetarian and people would challenge me at every corner to try to “disprove’ it, so they could say AHA! You’re not really a vegetarian after all! You’re cheating! OK, yes, I’m wearing leather shoes right now, but I’ve had them for 2 years and I’m not actually planning to eat them anytime soon, so could you please let me go about my business and stop trying to “expose” my web of lies?



Another ladder takes nothing from 25s, but helps 10s. Everyone wins, right?


I’m trying REAL hard to not sink to thinking that the 25s just wanna keep the 10s down, y’know? Because that’s silly and unnecessary. But it sure feels a bit that way, with the above “reasons” for why we shouldn’t have another ladder. It’s the 25mans that are complaining and trying to stomp on the idea – even though it affects them in no way. Trying to say there aren’t enough 10man guilds (which I think is the opposite of the truth, 10 mans are on the rise), and there’s not enough interest.


It’s hard to hold back and not say “this doesn’t even affect you, so why are you so determined to stop it?”


You can’t tell us what to do, 25mans. You’re not our real dad.


My suggestion takes nothing from the 25man raiders – they still get to list themselves in the 10man progression list. This dulls none of their glory, it hurts them in no way. But my list would be additional, purely for the people only interested in being 10 man guilds (and for people only interested in finding a 10 man guild). It’s an “everyone wins” deal.


But it seems like people are trying as hard as they can to find any possible reason to squash the idea. It’s too hard. It’s too hard to track. There are hardly any 10 man guilds.




Evidently, though: it seems to come down to one core argument: if you ever run a PuG on a weekend, you’re not really a 10 man guild. You’re a 25man guild with fewer members, trying to claim glory on the 10 man listing. Stop pretending to be a “real” 10 man guild, and deal with having to be in the 25man list with everyone else.



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