Dual specs + LFD + Need = drama?
A snippet from Flash of Moonfire (read the full story here) –
I queued for normal ToC on my feral because I wanted the Black Heart, and being that I wanted in faster, I queued for both tank and dps. When I first did that I expected to go as tank to be honest, but it ended up being that about half the time I ran normal ToC I went as dps. Tanks love this place, and only one tank can go at a time.
The Black Heart dropped. I immediately rolled Need for it.
Then the party immediately said that what I’d done was not cool, that I shouldn’t have queued as dps to roll on a tanking trinket. I explained that I do both and queued as both. In retrospect I could have said something at the start of the instance like “I’m here for the Black Heart. If you don’t like it, leave and I’ll switch over to my tank spec and we’ll requeue for another dps,” but I hadn’t thought it would be a big deal.
- I ran a normal TOC5. I queued as healer.
- The tank was a pally, and we had a rogue, mage, and DK as DPS.
- Tanking plate dropped. The pally and DK needed. The DK won. Nothing was said.
- DPS leather dropped. I rolled need. The rogue rolled need. I won. Something was said:
Figure 1: Tell me how you really feel.
I now have a macro. The macro’s icon is a giant blue sad face, to represent QQ over a dual-specced feral/resto druid rolling on DPS leather, waaah.
“Hi – I queued to heal but my main spec is Feral. I intend to roll Need on both healing and feral loot if the item is an upgrade for me. If this is a problem, please speak up now.”
Perhaps I might change it to include something like, “If there’s something specific you want though.. let me know, I won’t roll against you.”
Possibly Related Posts:
94 Comments »
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
I’m sorry, but they’re right. You are there performing a certain role, and you should not need againt the people performing the other roles. To make it clearer – you’re healing but your offspec is tank. A tanking item drops. Does the tank want it? He does, you pass. The tank doesn’t want it? Need for offspec.
(if you’re in a PuG, your offspec is whatever you’re not doing, regardless of what you do in raids, questing etc).
If I queue as dual-spec, I accept that tank gear might drop when I’m DPS and DPS gear when I’m tank… that’s an inconvenience and I’m ready to deal with it. When I specificially want an item, I either go with friends who know that, despite my role, I will need on said item, or I just queue as the role that item is for.
What I find surprising is that you haven’t seen arguments like this regarding DPS gear. I have *always* seen them, and I would be seriously pissed off if a DPS needed on my tanking items. If you want to tank, then tank – then you will get first dibs. Until then, the person actually doing the work (i.e. me) is entitled to the gear.
That being said, yes, the macro is a good idea. It at least gives the people a heads-up. Personally, if I was a tank and a healer/DPS announced that they plan to roll need on items I need, I’d drop group and wait 15 minutes.
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
Jen, I think you missed one of the main points: the dps are rolling need on items that tanks or healers are also rolling need on (not passing) and expecting no complaints about it, but then raving when the same thing is done on dps gear.
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that there are more DPS in a party than there are tanks/healers, by simple demand of mechanics (and perceived higher stress of the tank/healer job). Thus, DPS compete more for drops, especially as groups may contain all clothie caster dps or all leather-using melee if the queue lines up right. While the DPS can’t justify telling another DPS not to roll, they still grumble and might inspect each other and moan about it not being fair that the RNG gods gave their shiny epic to someone else… but when a tank or healer rolls on something, they can get up on a mighty soapbox (or spam spit emotes).
And this may happen right after they rolled need on tank/healer gear for their offspec. The problem is that they’re making rules that they are not following for themselves.
Those types of people get added to my ignore list pretty darn quick in dungeon pugs.
Personally, I’m content to just heal on my main and leave my melee-ism to my alts or guild groups. I can understand, though, a dps-main (cat) deciding to queue as a tank (bear) and then roll need on, say, needle-encrusted scorpion. I’m appreciative that it’s one more tank in the system to build groups around, as they are the rarest in the LFD. I didn’t argue in the slightest when a bear won the needle over my rogue.
I ramble, though. *hugs to Keeva* hope you added that spit-guy to your ignore!
Honestly, if the guy had said to me, “I really wanted that :(” I would have handed it over. I like helping people. But he didn’t give me the chance – he just spat on me, called me a noob, and dropped group. His loss.
And yes, my main point is not that I should be able to take whatever I want. The point is that I never see people getting annoyed at DPS rolling on tank or tanks rolling on DPS gear – perhaps because both roles are there to damage the enemies? But if a healer rolls on something other than healing gear, or if a DPS or tank rolls on healing gear, it’s a huge issue.
I guess what I’m trying to say is: people don’t seem to notice dual spec rolls much if the dual spec is tank/DPS, but if it’s tank/healer or DPS/healer, it’s more obvious, and perhaps more likely to create a problem.
And I fully expect 50 replies from people saying the rogue was right and I’m a jerk – but I really don’t care, they can flame away. I did the instance, I put in equal work, and the item was a direct upgrade for me. I don’t think that we should have to remind people that dual specs exist and that we want upgrades as they present themselves.
I don’t subscribe to the “you must stick to gear that fits the job you are doing right this second” rubbish. I don’t like being feral in groups – I will never do it. So I *never* get to roll on feral loot? Sorry – nuh uh.
I fully intend to use my “warning macro”, because I’m a polite person. However, I do not intend to stop rolling on upgrades for both of my specs – which is something that many people do, but that mainly the healing hybrids suffer for.
Rolling rules and ideals also vary greatly throughout the different realms.
One guild that I was in on another realm insisted that you pass on EVERY item, then /roll in party chat to determine the winner. When I pointed out that this was redundant (as the Need/Greed rolls do exactly that for you) they basically accused me of being a ninja, unfair, etc.
Their system was to completely throw out Blizzard’s rolling buttons and re-do the rolls for themselves. It was a big waste of time- everyone had to hit pass, then roll, then if they won, go collect the item. But they thought it was the fairest way.
My point: Jen, you believe that people should always pass items that do not match their spec and role while they are in the instance – and you speak about it as if it’s law – something that everyone knows. But it’s your opinion based on your experiences, your feelings, and your ideas of how loot should be handled.
In Hana’s story, people often roll Need, it’s commonplace. So when Hana did the same, it didn’t seem like a big deal – until it blew up.
In the beginning, rolling Need on Frozen Orbs was met with calls of “ninja”.. but people soon found it was easier to just roll Need because every realm has its own standard for them. After rolling Greed a bunch of times, I realised people weren’t stealing them, they were just using their realm’s normal system.
So people can say what they believe – they can say they believe I was right or they believe I was in the wrong – but there’s no rule (unless Blizzard puts one in). It’s all personal beliefs mashed together with server norms.
With so many millions of players and hundreds of realms, there are bound to be clashes between people who believe with conviction that their way is right and someone else’s way is plain wrong.
I know that I am a fair person. I don’t rip people off, I’m not a jerk. But I’m not going to be told that I can’t roll on items for my main spec purely because I volunteer to heal groups instead and the gear doesn’t match my “job”. If that’s a problem for people – there’s the door. Or if it’s REALLY offensive, then I guess there’s the vote button… I’ll get another group quickly, it’s no skin off my nose.
I don’t agree with you here. The difference between tanking plate and DPS plate is a lot smaller than the difference between DPS gear and healing gear. It doesn’t matter, that’s a side issue. If the DK had passed, would you not have rolled on the shoulders?
The main point though is if your toon is DPS main specced, then queue as DPS, do DPS in the group and roll on DPS gear. From that rogues point of view, he or she queued up for 20 mins to do DPS. They don’t get to roll on healer leather, they don’t get to roll on caster cloth (as if there was any other type of cloth), they don’t get plate or mail. All they can roll on is DPS leather. And then the healer needs it away from them.
The healer who is DPS main but couldn’t be bothered to actually do DPS for us. The healer who’s time is so precious they can’t waste it in queue, like say, the rogue who waited 20 mins for the instance to pop so they could do DPS.
Honestly, I agree with the first post. While the response you got was a bit jerky I’m not surprised you got it and I do think you’re in the wrong here. If you’re main spec is DPS and you want DPS gear, queue as DPS. If you go as a healer and DPS gear you could use drops, you should only roll need after making sure anyone who is ACTUALLY doing DPS doesn’t need it.
You can’t be surprised if people resent a healer who intends to roll on all spell leather, good spell cloth, dps leather, caster weapons, dps two handers, healing trinkets, attack power trinkets, any rings at all, etc. when others who had to wait longer just to get into the instance can only roll on a few of those things.
And yes, I have two 80 dual specced druids and if I heal, I only roll on healing gear and vice versa if I go cat.
Edit – You posted while I was posting:
“I don’t like being feral in groups – I will never do it. So I *never* get to roll on feral loot? Sorry – nuh uh. ”
That I don’t get at all. If you won’t even run heroics as a feral then I don’t see how it could possibly be your “main spec”. If that’s how you see groups, you really have to let people who DPS as their main have first crack at DPS loot. And seriously, in heroics 99% of the stuff is at risk of being sharded so it’s not that much of a hardship for you.
The difference between tanking plate and DPS plate is a lot smaller than the difference between DPS gear and healing gear.
My point exactly; some people can roll on their dual spec gear and it goes virtually unnoticed; but when a tank or DPS class rolls on healing gear, or a healer rolls on tank/DPS gear, it’s VERY noticeable, and causes fights.
And once again – I don’t DPS groups because I don’t like being feral in groups. There’s no chance in hell that anyone is going to force me to queue as and play a role that I dislike in order to get the gear that I want.
on Doomhammer, at least, its usually just a case where a person asks the group, “mind if I roll on that for my offpsec?’ and 99% of the time, its no big issue, we have a big ‘use is better than shard or sale” attitude. In that case, yeah, I would have yielded to the one who needed it for a main spec, but that level of rudeness was totally uncalled for.
Shake it off, Keeva, those guys were jerks!
Wow, to be honest, I didn’t realize there was so much debate on this issue!
The problem is with the looting system. There is no way to prioritize Main Spec rolls over Off Spec rolls. Let’s say I want that item for my off-spec, even though I’m currently healing. If I don’t roll need, then I’m rolling greed, which is equivalent to DE – There is no priority over the rogue who rolls to DE the item.
So unless I want to risk losing a potentially solid off-spec upgrade to DE rolls, I have to roll need on it.
As an alternative, I could see how other people roll on items, and just ask if it’s okay if I roll on it /shrug.
Miss Medicina´s last blog ..HealerScore
To be honest, at the time, I forgot there was a rogue in the group. I would normally sit back and wait to see if someone needed something – and simply pass.
I don’t want people to think I go into groups scheming and rubbing my hands together nefariously, thinking about all the cool stuff I can tear away from the DPS classes.
I get a kick out of seeing people happy, so if someone said they wanted something, I’d pass it to them without question.
But, at the same time, nobody is going to tell me that I can never ever roll on gear because I don’t like being feral in 5 mans
This was never a problem before the DE option was introduced. Prior to this you needed for main spec greeded for offspec and everything was ok.
It is completely unfair to roll need on stuff for your offspec when you play a hybrid. If you can queue as a healer you’ll get into a dungeon in 5 seconds, why should you get to take gear off the 3 dps in the instance? If I want DPS gear, I queue as DPS so I don’t have to feel that I’m jerking others around.
If you absolutely feel you have the right you should at least make the point clear at the beginning of the run so that people who don’t agree with it (I’m guessing pretty much all pure DPS classes) have the option to leave.
If you don’t like playing feral or moonkin in a group environment I guess I don’t really understand why you would need gear for it or why you would take it off someone who clearly does love that spec and is willing to play it in a group environment.
Lath´s last blog ..Breaking Down Gnomeregan
MM – I would love to see options for Main/Off – but apparently that would be too confusing or something, I think I read something from Blizz saying they didn’t want to complicate the system further.
Like you, I don’t want to lose items to shards (I’ve greeded before, and had things disenchanted in front of me), but at the same time – I don’t want to be a jerk.
I would love to be able to click a button that is the equivalent of saying “mind if I roll on this for my offspec?” but that has a lower priority than a “main spec need”, so it doesn’t stomp all over the main spec people in the group.
I’d love that.
Lath: who said I don’t love the spec? I do love feral. Why would I have a feral druid if I didn’t enjoy it?
I just don’t like being a cat or bear in groups – and that is my prerogative. Who gets to decide that I’m not allowed to roll on gear because I intend to solo with it, rather than group? The rogue doesn’t automatically deserve an item more than I do because he intends to use it in a particular way.
“The rogue doesn’t automatically deserve an item more than I do because he intends to use it in a particular way.”
Actually, he deserves it more than you because he uses it 100% of the time he’s playing, including right now when he’s stabbing the mob that drops the item you’re rolling on. He’s in a group using his skills to help himself and 4 others have a shot at loot. By sharing the results of his gear and efforts he deserves the piece before you, who will only use the piece part time and not use it to help others kill mobs and get loot, only to solo.
I don’t see you have a leg to stand on here. It just makes you look selfish to me.
And how do you know he’ll get more use out of it?
Who’s to say he’s not someone who logs in for an hour a week, does an instance, potters around a bit, then logs off?
I use my feral gear to farm and grind for hours each week, to give to the guild bank.
“he’ll use it more” is a weak argument.
Good idea on the macro, I’ll be doing that tonight!
I played Feral to lvl, as many do, but was disappointed to find it hard to get into 5 man pugs as DPS so switched to Resto. I actually quite enjoy it and it is how I mainly play.
However I do want to DPS and Tank at some point, and so I do want suitable gear. There is no rule on rolling in a PUG. I have until recently always rolled greed on dps gear but this sees me lose out to a disenchant 99% of the time.
James´s last blog ..Promises for 2010
*If you heal the group, you can only roll on healing gear. Ever*
Ok,
The whole “you are doing X job so you are only able to roll for X gear” is B.S. With pugs, if a pally wants to come as DPS, but we need tankgage, we will let that pally roll dps for the raid since he/she is doing us a favor by tanking even though that wasn’t his interest. Once that occurs, the offer opens up to the entire raid “Anyone else want to declare a spec they are not here as?” That does not mean they can roll on both sets of gear, but they can pick a spec they are not there as.
It’s happened many a time to my druid. I don’t need any healing gear from ToC10, but my Boomkin set does. So if the raid is short on heals, I don’t mind healing (it usually is a cakewalk seeing as how my resto set is overgeared for it) as long as I can roll dps as my main spec. I would think PUGs wouldn’t have a problem with this, seeing as how they are actually getting to raid rather than wait for a healer.
James: I used to do a bit of bear tanking, but don’t like it anymore. And kitty makes me zzzzzz in groups (but I adore it solo!). What I really love, though, is healing groups – I love it so, so much. So why shouldn’t I be allowed to do what I love, while seeking gear for my other set?
It’s cool – the problem was that I didn’t announce beforehand. I just didn’t think to – as I said, I’ve seen people roll Need on offspec gear and so I didn’t think it would ever be a problem. I’ll use my macro, and if anyone objects, I’ll play it by ear.
Sabriem: Thanks for the “BS” comment, I appreciate it.
I really don’t see a problem with people rolling on offspec gear – I suppose the only issue is communication. If someone said “i’m here for (item)”, I can either say “ok, no problem”, “ok, but I’m rolling too”, or I could leave and find another group with (hopefully) less competition. I have the choice.
As I said – I’ll be polite and announce it now, as a safeguard – but there’s no chance that I’m going to force myself into a role that I dislike because there’s some unwritten rule out there that you can only take gear that suits the role you queued for.
The option for an extra button or two has been suggested lots of times, I hope it’s something Blizzard considers for the future.
Eg:
Need (main spec)
Need (off spec)
Greed
DE
Pass
Another problem is cloth – I wish there was a button that said “This is an upgrade for me but I know I can’t roll Need against a cloth-wearer, but please don’t shard it, I could really use it.” Try typing THAT out before everyone hits DE out of habit….
This whole concept is rubbish. If someone contributes toward having an item drop, they are entitled to roll on it if they so desire. Especially now with how paint-by-numbers easy it is to get into groups for a dungeon. The DPS that would say you’re being unfair and greedy are themselves greedy, hiding behind the ‘poor me, I can only roll on one sort of gear QQ’ defense.
Common sense must still apply, of course. I’m not saying a Paladin should snag cloth and leather healing gear over Priests and Druids. But when there is so much overlap between what items are useful for different classes/specs, people should come to terms with the fact that there will be competition.
I would imagine that just about every person that ever built up a set of gear for an offspec did so by gathering items while in their primary spec. To do otherwise would result in failgroups and waste everyone’s time.
I am a Holy Paladin. If I see Ret gear drop that is an improvement over what I have, I will need on it. Since I don’t have a Prot spec at the moment, I won’t roll on Prot gear. This is perfectly reasonable.
Certainly there are people who abuse the new system and the lack of accountability since groups are made up from different servers, but you dissenters should need to stop acting like the abused stepchild. Requeue and work for your loot. You’ll appreciate having it all the more if you work a little harder to get it.
In a 5 man pug, I need roll based on the role I’m performing at the moment. So in the example above I would have deferred to the rogue. That’s just me.
In reality though, what are the chances you’re going to see this guy again? Not great. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
“If your main spec is DPS and you want DPS gear, queue as DPS. If you go as a healer and DPS gear you could use drops, you should only roll need after making sure anyone who is ACTUALLY doing DPS doesn’t need it.”
This is backwards thinking. Since healers are in short supply compared to DPS, you should be rewarding people for being ready and willing to bring the spec and the gear to perform that short-supply role, not punish them by restricting them from rolling on the gear they’re actually there for.
My resto druid has pretty much zero feral gear: I’ve never really played the spec, and never really needed to. But if I wanted to build a feral set from heroics, you can bet I’m going to press the heal button with my ilvl 258/264 gear rather than cobble together a patchwork feral set and then subject the group to my terrible knowledge of feral. And I think it’s rather shortsighted to say that I deserve any less than a fair chance at the dps leather than any other rogue or druid in the group.
So, I’ll be pressing need. And I won’t be so kind as to warn you beforehand. Don’t like it? Enjoy requeueing for 20 minutes, I’ll get another group that appreciates the fact that I’m playing a necessary role they don’t enjoy.
1. I agree that the DE option being on an equal footing with “Greed” has caused us to redefine what “Need” means.
2. If we limit rolls to “mainspec only” then why aren’t we also limiting it based on whether the toon itself is a main or an alt? How do you know that the rogue in question isn’t the person’s 5th alt? In that case, you may well get more use out of the item as an “offspec.”
3. If you really want the item, spitting isn’t going to get you it. However, politely saying that it would be a substantial upgrade might very well get the item traded to you. That HAS happened to me.
Crankyhealer´s last blog ..On couples, kids, friends, and raiding in “pairs”.
I like your Loot System idea, Keeva, however 2 buttons seems to be too much for some players.
How many times has a player hit ‘Need’ “on accident. oops, sorry guys!”. Awful when we’re trying to gear up an alt with ilvl 200 drops from heroics. This was solved with the ability to trade…however I’m not sure you could do that with players across servers now.
This usually happens because a dps decides to loot while there are mobs still up and about. That has to be my BIGGEST pet peeve. I have hit the wrong button once or twice, because the loot window pops in front of my Grid while I’m still trying to heal the players that are doing their jobs.
Sabriem´s last blog ..EtMo: Apparently, its a slow news week for The Vatty Times. Thats what its called right?
I’m staunchly in support of the idea that if you queue as a particular role, you get gear for that role. If you queue as one thing and Need on off spec items without saying anything in advance then that will be the last time I group with you.
If you’re going to post that macro at the beginning of the run then I think that’s enough. Now everyone’s on the same page and if they don’t want to participate then they don’t have to get to the end of the run only to be disappointed.
In this particular instance it sounds like you only want to heal in group settings but want the feral gear for soloing. That’s a luxury for you and should thus be second priority.
Shayzani´s last blog ..New Rules – 1/12/09
“If your main spec is DPS and you want DPS gear, queue as DPS. If you go as a healer and DPS gear you could use drops, you should only roll need after making sure anyone who is ACTUALLY doing DPS doesn’t need it.”
Much like Jurik stated, this is poor thinking. If people didn’t offer to play the tank and healer roles, even if it is their off spec, the DPS would be the ones that feel it the most as their queue times skyrocket.
If I’m DPS and I queue to tank, my queue pops instantly. Why? Because there are so few tanks. So by opting to help by tanking, which in turn allows the group to even form, I should be penalized from rolling with on items for my main spec? That hardly seems fair, when what I’ve done is made a concession to help the group as a whole. If I hadn’t have said “hey I’ll tank” to the LFG system, you would still be sitting the queue waiting for another tank to come along.
The whole thing seems a bit double standardish, honestly. You want me to tank (heal), you really do. But now I am to be penalized for playing my, much higher in demand, off spec? Hardly seems fair.
Beruthiel´s last blog ..And This Is Why There Are No Tanks…
Wait, why should “needing for non-heroic-dungeon purposes” be a second priority?
A friend of mine (no really, not me
) ran a random VH recently and asked “Does anyone else skin?” The tank replied “I do. I get all the leather here.” “Why?” “Cuz I’m the tank and you need me more than I need you. If you don’t like it, leave”
Some of the responses in this thread are starting to slide close to this kind of prima donna attitude: I’m deigning to heal you so you should be grateful that I’m here at all. No one is saying that they chose to queue as a healer or a tank out of the goodness of their hearts or over civic concern that game needs more healers and tanks. Everyone is stating the obvious: you did it because you get instant queues and it’s better for you. Please don’t make it out to be some kind of charity.
“And how do you know he’ll get more use out of it?
Who’s to say he’s not someone who logs in for an hour a week, does an instance, potters around a bit, then logs off?
I use my feral gear to farm and grind for hours each week, to give to the guild bank.
“he’ll use it more” is a weak argument.”
Come on, seriously? Maybe he doesn’t play as much as you? Maybe he’s a scrub? Think that way and he can be justified as saying “Maybe she doesn’t go feral at all. Maybe she just ninjas all dungeon loot, shards it and sells it.”
The fact is a rogue has no other role than DPS and with the possible exception of PvP, he’s going to wear those shoulders only while you’re not going to wear them when you heal, when you raid, etc. He doesn’t know what you do outside of the group any more than you know what he does. All he knows is that you’re healing now.
In my opinion, your argument is weak.
Both my priests are shadow/disc dualspecced, one that I know I’ll be playing primarily disc in guild runs and one that does both pretty much equally often. I’ve encountered similar challenges with VoA runs.
Both of them are geared in the lowest t9 level for their heal-sets, but until recently both were missing the shadow gloves & legs. People need healers for VoA 10; I have no problem with healing it, but I’m in there for shadow gear. It’s in my ‘note’ in the LFR interface, I let the RL know, if they have a problem with it they can find another healer. I queue heals/dps.. I am perfectly happy to run as a shadow priest rolling on shadow gear if that’s what a group needs, but it seems silly to say that because I only need shadow gear out of there, I shouldn’t be willing to heal. (To clarify – I’m completely fine rolling against other priests for the gear, I’m not trying to *reserve* it for me or anything – that’d be selfish, eek – I just want a chance to roll on it if it does drop. If the other healing priests and the the shadowpriests all want to roll on it too? That’s cool.)
Okay, slightly back to the topic at hand. Yes, healers are in short supply. If I queue as heals/dps, should I be punished for the random system picking the one I don’t need to gear up in heroics? There have been a few occasions where I queued heals/dps and it picked dps. In those cases, should I have queued *only* for heals if I wanted healing gear out of the instance? As far as I can tell, if you’re not in a group when you initially queue, there’s no way to tell what someone queued as.
I’d imagine a fair amount of tanks/heals, when trying to build their 2nd set of gear, are going to queue as tanks/heals for a few reasons. We’re better geared for that already, we’ll help the group more, there’s already a shortage and we’re helping others get groups faster. Limiting people to only rolling the spec they’re in as is likely to get more people not knowing what they’re doing (not to mention less-geared tanks starting out), and fewer quality tanks/healers.
(Sorry, got long o_o)
Cazenovia´s last blog ..Now, I know disc priests are awesome..
Yeah, you’ve gotta have a warning before the run actually starts at least as a warning that you might want gear outside of your spec as a courtesy to the other pugs, I’d say.
To clarify my first post: what the guy did was very rude and he would go on my ignore list straight away. /spit is the most offensive emote in WoW IMO and I would see red if someone did that to me.
Another part of the argument was that it’s somehow ok for DPS to do this. NO, it’s never ok, no matter what role you are. I will bitch at anyone who needs for OS if they don’t ask first, and I think I’ve even left groups I was healing because the leader was a DPS who needed on tank gear.
And for a happy story… it can work out fine even if two people want the same item. I go to ToC normal for the tanking trinket and, lo and behold, it drops. The holy pally pouts seeing I needed, but he passes, adding that he was actually after it for OS. So… we just ran ToC 5-6 more times until he got it too. Everyone was happy and we had a lot of fun doing it.
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
I agree wholeheartedly here.
SCREW YOU DPS!
Just because you can roll need for 2 different specs and expect us to play nice? Eff you.
Its for my spec. I don’t run dungeons to gear YOU up. I do it for me. You don’t like it? Leave or vote me out. I’ll continue doing it in every run i am in.
Pugs do not equate to niceties that I afford my guild. If you are pugging then it is for your improvement. Not whoever came with you.
In summary: SCREW YOU, PUGS. I’M HERE FOR ME.
Everyone who is against you on this, is because they are big babies who cry when it happens to them. They are just pixels imo and afford me no extra thought. Plus if anyone ever complains. Then I roll need on everything else, because I can.
Yes, let’s make WoW an even worse environment… I don’t get enough “me first” at work and on TV, I really want to see them in my game too.
I know the answer, but why can’t people just be nice to each other?
P.S. Forgot to mention: I queue as healer because I LIKE IT. Even if I would do it to get less queue time, that would still not make me entitled to more gear. None of the people in the PuG is forcing me to heal, so why would they give their loot to me?
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
I don’t actually care what YOU think. I will continue rolling Need on items I CAN roll Need for and WANT. But, by all means, continue your argument. i’m sure you’ll change my mind.
“A friend of mine (no really, not me
) ran a random VH recently and asked “Does anyone else skin?” The tank replied “I do. I get all the leather here.” “Why?” “Cuz I’m the tank and you need me more than I need you. If you don’t like it, leave””
If you’re trying to draw a parallel, then this is an awfully shaky analogy. Nobody here is saying that the healer should get PRIORITY on loot for non-healing specs. What we’re saying is that anyone who is contributing to the group should have an equal chance at getting the loot that they legitimately need, and that non-current specs are legitimate needs.
Sure, I personally benefit from performing a necessary high-demand low-supply function, in the form of faster queues. But that doesn’t obligate me to waive my rolls on loot that I legitimately need for any spec.
I know this is a bit off topic since it’s about tanking gear, but it’s still the same problem of needing for off-spec
Lately, I’ve been playing my DK tank in 5 mans a lot, and I’m having a great time doing it.
In my opinion, unless some has said I will be rolling need for off-spec on tank pieces, I should have top priority on tank pieces. Since I am the tank for the group. If you see I have the piece, or ask if you can roll need I’m totally fine with that. However, when a plate dps needs on an item and then immediately drops group after winning, while, that just sucks. And unfortunately sees to happen a lot to me. Just a little courtesy goes a very long way 
That said, if a plate dps said they planned to immediately need on all tanking items before we started, I would not hesitate to drop group. Tank ques are instant, and I’m still slowly gearing my tank up
Also, why do so many Paladins, Warriors, and DK’s que as dps roles? Tank ques are instant and tanking against today’s trigger happy dps is a nice challenge.
I don’t understand the people claiming they’re penalized if they only role on gear that they need for the role they’re performing. Let’s compare using Keeva’s instance as an example. Wowhead’s being weird and not including the Black Knights drops in their results right now but if I use Thottbot along with Wowhead, I get the following numbers:
Trial of the Champion (normal)
Total BoP drops: 36
Total equipable by Druid or Rogue: 22 (61% of drops)
Total of those with AP or Agi: 5 (14%)
Total of those with SP: 12 (33%)
Non-cloth with SP: 6 (17%)
So if she only rolled on items that she could use as a healer and passed on those cloth items that the mage could also use, Keeva’s druid has six possible items to look forward to. The rogue has 5. What people are saying is that this is horribly unfair to Keeva and she should be able to roll need on all items she could use, which would be 11 items to the rogues 5. Unless of course you also believe that cloth is fair game, screw the mage, in which case there are 17 items that are fair Need game for the druid and only 5 for the rogue.
Do you see why maybe the DPS thinks you’re being a bit greedy? So, no. You’re not being penalized.
This is an interesting one…it’s easy to see both sides of the coin and why people feel the way they do. After thinking about this a little, I’m in favor of the “roll on what role you are” idea though.
First, it’s the default method for looting/rolling in PUG raids, at least that I’ve seen. You’re a pally tank? You get to roll on tank plate, not healing plate. Yes, you might miss out on some nice spellpower plate but it works both ways – you also get top priority on nice tanking plate drops.
Second, and this is more of a problem with WoW than it is with people, a bear druid could queue up, instantly get a group, and win all the agi leather gear that drops over the rogue that’s been waiting 20 minutes for a group. Now, this is nothing wrong per se on the bear’s part, since both are contributing equally, but from the rogue’s perspective it sure does suck.
Now if you queued as tank/DPS, regardless of what you end up slotted as, I think it’s completely fair that you roll on loot for both specs. However, I feel this should be announced at the start of the run so everyone understands. Every time I’ve seen someone say this, it’s been fine, we all understand. If people don’t like it, best to figure it out now before something drops.
I think though that the best way is simply to ask. Announcing at the start of the run what you’re here to roll on is essentially asking “Are you all okay with this?” Or if you’re running with normal, non-jerk people, asking if you can need on an item is usually enough to figure things out.
Example: my hunter was the only mail wearer in a heroic Forge of Souls run, and some bracers dropped. They were a minor, minor upgrade for me so I needed. The tank pally, clearly embarrassed, asked if he could actually need those for his Ret offspec, because he had a quest reward blue item that was far inferior to these bracers. I said sure and handed it over (since he couldn’t actually need) and everyone was happy. Easy peasy.
It’s not a matter of the quantity of items, but rather the type of items. Not a single spellpower item that you’d like to permit the druid healer to roll on actually fulfills Keeva’s stated goal of acquiring equipment for her feral spec. So quantitative analysis doesn’t really work.
@jurik: “If you’re trying to draw a parallel, then this is an awfully shaky analogy. Nobody here is saying that the healer should get PRIORITY on loot for non-healing specs.”
Actually I was commenting on something you posted earlier:
“Since healers are in short supply compared to DPS, you should be rewarding people for being ready and willing to bring the spec and the gear to perform that short-supply role, not punish them by restricting them from rolling on the gear they’re actually there for.”
You’re implying that the healers or tanks should be getting more than their share because they’re in short supply. The prima donna story was directed at a number of people who feel that by playing healer or tank that they deserve more than dps does and I’ve definitely run into a number of tanks with that attitude in randoms (I usually heal).
My point was that a) no you shouldn’t reward people based on the popularity of their class and b) you’re not getting penalized. You already have access to more gear than the rogue does.
Even Keeva says “To be honest, at the time, I forgot there was a rogue in the group. I would normally sit back and wait to see if someone needed something – and simply pass.”
Why?
See, in my mind, that is exactly the right thing to do but if you don’t believe that the rogue who’s actually in the instance DPSing has more right to the leather dps gear than the druid who’s healing, why would she pass? I think that shows that deep down she knows it’s not right for off specs to roll against people’s main spec.
I think the problem here is the sense of entitlement cause by the need/greed system. Players think that because a drop is itemized for them, they have a greater right to it. Weighing the effort a player puts in (long queues, particular roles) and the value they will get from an item (usefulness of the item, enchanting mats, gold) is a complex equation which is evaluated differently for each player. The whole idea of allowing someone greater priority for a particular item is based on the notion that you are allowed priority on items you prefer. As has been pointed out, individual communities have converged on conventions here, but the cross-server PUGs have mixed this up again.
The fairest loot distribution would be to give all players equal claim to all loot. They each played a part in killing the boss; why should a plate tank get less loot because dps cloth drops? The trade option allows players to redistribute at the end if it benefits them. Of course the disenchant option can put a kink in such plans. Perhaps a change so that items are not actually disenchanted until you leave the instance could work.
It would be interesting to me if I knew what Class and Role each of the commenters above consider as their “main”. As a healer, I agree with much of what Keeva has said. As a person who almost exclusively plays Hybrid classes, I mostly agree with Keeva.
When running with my guildies, the rule is “if you need it, need it.” Whether it’s for your current spec, or your dual spec. Need if you need. It’s a simple concept.
In a pug run, I will follow a simple formula. If healing roll need on healing upgrades. Ask to roll need on Balance upgrades. If DPSing, do the opposite.
There are two simple things to remember.
1. It’s a Game.
2. It will drop again.
Problem: When I heal heroics on my Paladin, I need absolutely no healing gear drops.
Solution: I roll on off-spec gear.
Result: I don’t waste my time, and I provide groups with the best Pally healing they’ve ever experienced.
Everyone wins!
@maerdred: “It would be interesting to me if I knew what Class and Role each of the commenters above consider as their “main”. ”
My main is a resto/balance druid. If I run randoms on this toon, it’s as a healer pretty much exclusively though if I group with a friend who heals I may go boomie. This toon has been my main since Dec 2004 and has healed since my 40s.
I have two other 80s: a feral/resto druid who ends up healing in randoms mostly since I’m trying to build up badges on him and a rogue who just groups with friends since my DPS sucks too much for randoms so far. Once I get his DPS up, gearing up with friends and badges, I’ll do more randoms with him.
And yes, most of my raids use the “if you can equip it you can use it” rule but that doesn’t stop what we call “nice fights” from slowing us down. (”No, you take it, you can use it more!” “No you!”)
A rule you use amongst friends you’ve played with for five years is a bit different from one you use in PUGs though.
Blizzard doesn’t allow for off-spec rolling. There is either need or risk having it disenchanted. Given this, I roll need on anything I need for either spec on my hybrids. I may wait to see other responses, so I can pass sometimes if I didn’t go into the instance specifically seeking an item. Until Blizzard puts in an off-spec roll option that is between Need and Disenchant, then I’m going to Need on anything for either set that I need.
lissanna´s last blog ..Possible small moonkin buff on the radar
Need if you need, that being said I always tell the group I really want x item before I start
That dumb snowflake will be mine!
@maedred: My main spec is healer and my (not very used) off spec is balance. My pally is main spec prot and off spec holy. I have used these rules since TBC on all my chars and I never had any trouble. I am however very glad I leveled my druid before the new LFG system – she wore cloth up to 80, and with the current system most of it would’ve ended up sharded.
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
““Since healers are in short supply compared to DPS, you should be rewarding people for being ready and willing to bring the spec and the gear to perform that short-supply role, not punish them by restricting them from rolling on the gear they’re actually there for.”
You’re implying that the healers or tanks should be getting more than their share because they’re in short supply. The prima donna story was directed at a number of people who feel that by playing healer or tank that they deserve more than dps does and I’ve definitely run into a number of tanks with that attitude in randoms (I usually heal).”
The reward for queueing as a hybrid and being flexible is faster queue pops, not loot priority. Nobody is saying that healers or tanks should have first shot at anything, just an equal chance.
Hybrids playing healing/tanking roles are getting penalized if they are barred from rolling on dps gear. Everyone burns the same heroic lockout and everyone puts in the same amount of time clearing the instance, yet the hybrids that are fulfilling necessary rolls are being treated as second class citizens when it comes to rolling on dps loot. Why? Because they chose instead to offer to play the higher-demand, lower-supply spec.
“b) you’re not getting penalized. You already have access to more gear than the rogue does.”
I already covered this.
I feel like this issue started out dirty and just got dirtier. I’ll try to be constructive.
I have a warlock main and a tree/bear druid I also play a great deal, so that’s my bias. I see your point, and I half-agree with it, but in the end I have to disagree with you, Keeva. Honestly, I think the problem wasn’t who plays their toon in a certain spec longer or who chose the hybrid over a pure role class or who checked the box for heals versus checking the box for dps. I think the problem is people just assumed and then when assumptions didn’t match up (the pally/DK’s must’ve, because no ruckus about that bad roll), people pitched a fit and left instead of working it out. Including you. You had a problem with the DK/pally roll (because somehow I don’t think this is the first time a dps rolled on tank in front of you), but you said nothing. I’ve held my roll for an item I don’t give a flying shit about because I had concerns about the people rolling on it. So, I’m sorry, but your post smacks to me of you whining rather than actually having a wrong done to you.
I don’t agree with the DK rolling on the tanking plate when the pally rolled Need. I also don’t agree with your tree rolling on the rogue dps leather. The DK’s need doesn’t make yours any more or less wrong, and yours doesn’t make his any more or less right. I think you were in the wrong because you queued to heal, you were okay with having to heal, you got picked to heal, you healed, but you just blankly rolled on DPS gear. I think both of you (the DK and you) could have done with a little “hey, I’d like that, is that a problem?” before just being rude about it and assuming you can have it.
It really does annoy me when people queue as tank/dps or heals/dps, get picked to tank/heals, then roll on a DPS drop usable and being rolled need on by a DPS, and when the DPS yells about it, the tank/heals whines. It equally annoys me when a dps wins on offset tank/healer gear over a need-rolling tank/healer and doesn’t like being chewed out for it. You click the checkbox for the roles you are willing to perform and roll on, the DF puts you in that role and you…roll with it. If you ONLY want a certain spec, then ONLY check that box. When I want bear gear, I don’t check tank/heals, I check tank only. If I don’t feel like tanking but it would be nice to get some bear drops (like when I was angling for the Black Heart), I offer to heal chain ToC runs and ask before I roll on gear that another class would predominantly be using at the time. I had many chains of ToC normal runs with varied tanks and dps and I kept passing on my bear possible upgrades because that wasn’t my role at the time and somebody already performing the role wanted it. IT WILL DROP AGAIN. Typically, I’ve found that me being willing to pass for them, despite this drop being the sole reason I’m doing this instance and them knowing this fact, made them a lot more willing to run it again and again and again to get that item for me. To the point of me logging on a few days later and getting an offer to go run it again ad infinitum to get ME that drop.
I feel that this entire post’s arguments were based on hostility and unwillingness to compromise for things. It’s entirely possible I read into the wrong direction. But it just adds to the crap attitude of pugs when people think they need to not trust strangers in pugs and just roll need aimlessly for their own separate reasons. It says more if you think to type out “Do you like/need that?” BEFORE you roll rather than after. The phrase “it will drop again / it’s a game” needs to apply to both sides of the fence.
Bwuh, just commenting on this is stressing me out. Can’t strangers just play nice together?
I guess I just disagree with you Jurik. I don’t agree hybrids are penalized since, in practice, there are polite ways to get offspec gear without enraging main spec toons. And it’s not as if healing gear is useless to her. Based on a previous post about the same druid she had people putting her down about her lower quality healing gear so I’m guessing she’s rolling on that SP gear in there too. Signing up as a healer means no healer main spec competition and three dps players all looking for gear.
As far as the comments on itemization, I just don’t agree with your argument.
I do agree with the commenters who say working these things out before hand would be a good idea and I think just having a little common courtesy when it comes to the people you’re playing with would go a long way.
One problem with randoms is that on my battlegroup at least it seems the standard is to run absolutely as fast as you can, never give anyone a chance to loot or drink, pull more mobs at the same time every pull and then yell at anyone who doesn’t keep up. Makes it hard to have polite discussions while that’s going on.
Wow, Keeva! That rogue sure had a stick up her arse.
On the other hand, I can see why he’d be pissed off. Here he sees, a leather dps gear and he thinks it’s all his. Then the healer -with no warning- swoops in and uses it.
Yes, the rolling ONLY for your current spec is BS. However, I’ve found that if no one rolls on it, and it’ll probably be disenchanted, I speak up and say “Can I need for my offspec?” 100% of the time they’re okay with it. If I see that the rogue needs it, I pass on it because that is his only choice and I can always run the dungeon again.
I love the macro idea. It will save a lot of drama.
At the end of the day, it’s a game. Gear will come and go, so why bother getting all hot and bothered over it.
Littlebark´s last blog ..Tale Fifty Nine: Failing at Healing?
Jurik: <3
Crankyhealer: I was thinking about the alt thing as I went to sleep, and you’re right. There’s no way of knowing if that guy is his 5th alt – hey, Drucie is my 5th druid! ;P Gauging deservedness on whether someone will “use it more” is silly.
Sabriem: Yes, I think that’s why Blizzard won’t do it. I wish there was a way, though. There are so many times that I want to say “I could really use that +hit cloth item, but I wouldn’t take it over a clothie” – even in guild runs – I wish there was a button
Shayzani: Thanks – I will be using the macro, but I’ll probably add that extra bit that says “but if there’s something you came here for – I won’t roll against you”. If I’m not chasing specifics, and I’m always happy to pass if I know that people are desperate for a particular item.
Beru: And aside from that, I just love healing more… so for me, it comes back to doing something I *adore*, or doing something I dislike. Why should I be pushed into a role I dislike, with gear that is sub-par, and experience I have next to none of. Wouldn’t you like a moderately geared, very experienced healer, than a poorly geared, completely inexperienced DPS?
Icyslush: I’m not even kidding, I did a Ragefire Chasm and a tank threatened to leave if I didn’t hand over the Rough Stone that I just picked up from a mob. It was possibly the funniest and most mindboggling pug moment ever. Held to ransom for a piece of Rough Stone.
Cazenovia: I agree, everyone has to build a second set sometime – and to do that, you usually use your main set. I’ll just use my macro in future.
Uth: I’ll use my macro, now more than ever.
Jen: That’s the kind of thing I would do, too.. I like helping people get something they really want.
Notabear: Every druid for himself! *elbows everyone out of the way*
Poneria: No, no.. I didn’t have a problem with the DK grabbing tanking loot. I just looked at the item when it came up, and in passing noticed it had block (or something similar) on it. Then thought “oh, the tank didn’t win it, wonder if he’ll say anything.” That was pretty much it. And honestly – when people win things over me – eg that shaman taking cloth over my priest in Deadmines – I think “grr, I really could have used that” but he could be ele, so I let it slide. It doesn’t bother me when people take offspec stuff – and that’s the truth.
I’m not whining about wanting more gear. I’m saying that a) it’s funny how some classes can gear their dual specs without incident while others are seen as greedy and wrong, and b) I won’t be forced into a role I dislike in order to get the gear I need, simply because some people believe in the “rule” that you must take gear that matches the box you checked to get in.
ugh.. so tired… and late for work..
The “hey there’s more type X loot than type Y loot, therefore be happy just getting type X loot” fails the moment that a million crappy [correct armortype] pieces in the loot pool fail to make up for the far-batter itemized [lower armortype] piece. Hello to you plate dps that are still lotting on leather arpen gear because of the lower stamina budgets.
Similarly, a million pieces of resto loot on the drop table won’t help resolve the fact that several people are entering a dungeon with legitimate need of physical dps leather. Just because one happens to be assigned the task of healing doesn’t relegate them to second pick of all the loot. “But you got a queue faster” is just envy speaking.
Ultimately, it’s a game of finding the greatest common denominator that the group can agree on. And in this case, lots of people (including Blizzard) think gearing up alternate specs than the one you are playing at that instant entitles you to a fair chance at relevant loot that drops. If you don’t like that, I suggest not queueing to group with a completely random cross-section of people that may or may not live up to your personal standards on what constitutes “NEED”.
@Keeva I just now realized your post was a reply to another post. /facepalm /footinmouth
But, really, while we’ll disagree on the checkbox determining what your “main spec” for that instance is, I think we/commenters/general direction of the discussion agree that a little talking could have solved it better / will help future incidents.
Poneria´s last blog ..The Spitfire Controversy
Its quite nice to see that by and large, despite the fact that there are a lot of varying opinions about this, most seem to agree that a tiny bit of communication will diffuse the entire situation.
Shayzani´s last blog ..New Rules – 1/12/09
@Keeva: “Icyslush: I’m not even kidding, I did a Ragefire Chasm and a tank threatened to leave if I didn’t hand over the Rough Stone that I just picked up from a mob.”
Lol! U STONE NINJA!1!!
For offspec I usually wait and look at the loot rolls to see if somebody else rolls need before I do, if I see the tank has rolled need a tank piece I will pass immediately same with dps but if everyone rolls DE or greed or another dps rolls for their offpiece then i will also.
Poneria: That’s ok, I only just realised (as I drove to work) that perhaps people were associating what I wrote with the We Fly Spitfires post – I hope people didn’t think I was campaigning for more than my fair share!
I don’t believe I deserve loot more, nor do I expect (or want) to roll on every item in the instance that I can possibly use for any of my 3 hybrid roles. I’m not that kind of person.
In this instance, it was a mix of kinda forgetting there was a rogue (off with the fairies, I guess), and also not really even thinking about saying “I’m here for feral loot too”, because I’ve seen people Need on offspec gear plenty, and figured it was accepted. I didn’t go into the group thinking, “I’m taking feral loot and I don’t care if anyone else wants it.” I certainly don’t want or expect more than my fair share. I don’t have an inflated sense of entitlement, as a healer.
I’m probably the most generous person that I know in-game, and that’s no exaggeration. It may have come across as a “wah, I want to roll on everything” entry, but it’s really not – loot is not something I care very much about. This was just an isolated incident that I thought highlighted the disparity across servers and classes, which is something I find interesting. It’s just a bit of a commentary on how interesting it is that some dual specs fly under the radar because they’re “similar” gear types to your main spec, but others make you look greedy. (and the lesser argument that you can’t tell me to play feral, you’re not my real dad.)
Icyslush: He left! It was hilarious. Possibly the weirdest “loot” drama I’ve ever seen.
Keeva´s last blog ..Dual specs + LFD + Need = drama?
I don’t think there’s an easy way around this since there is no single rule that people follow. As long as someone considers Need as “I will use for one of my two specs” it will upset those who believe Need is “I will use it for the spec I am currently in.” I thought that I’d finally gotten the hang of the new system, since the majority of my 5-man groups conformed to the former statement, so when the odd-man group conformed to the latter I got yelled at. (I’m the Hana at the top of Keeva’s post.)
It seems the reality is that there is no standard for behavior other than what’s presented in the game. 5-mans are the Wild West now. (For the record, pre-LFD my server always passed on all BoPs and rolled afterwards. No one does that now. We can’t, not with the rest of the battlegroup Needing at will.)
I like Miss Medicina’s suggestion, that there would be main spec, off-spec options, and Keeva’s additional please let me take the cloth before it gets disenchanted. As a moonkin on my main druid (and slowly leveling resto on a third one!) it makes me cry that potential cloth upgrades that no priest/warlock/mage needs could end up a shard in a rogue’s bag instead of finding a useful home.
Hana´s last blog ..Dungeon Finder and Dual Specs
I’m going to be in this situation myself … I want to gear out my boomkin set but I’ll be damned if I’m gonna queue so I go as a healer.
However you have to accept the consequences of that decision. You gain the lovely benefit of being resto (i.e. no queues) but you have to accept that you’ve gone in with that as your main spec.
Its usually simple enough … if something drops for my offspec I ask in party chat if I can roll need on it. I wait … if no one objects then I roll.
Never had a problem with it.
But Keeva you are forgetting one very important rule. You rolled need against a rogue … and no one gives a crap about rogues. So did you actually ninja loot or did you do Azeroth a favour ??
Is it just me or has the new LFD system given rise to a larger number of macro’s. My very pregnant and consequently grumpy fiancee plays an uber Prot pally. She gets sick and tired of dps’ers who cant target assist. We run with party frames up so we can both see who is targetting what.
So she made a macro “Hi my name is Chillaa I’ll be your tank this evening. If you need mana please tell me and I’ll stop, if you want optional bosses please tell me and we’ll kill them, if you want achievements please tell I’m happy to try … if you are unable to target assist please feel free to die !”
To my amazement this gets plenty of lol’s and sets a good mood for the group, she also had dps’ers apologising when they died because the neglected to target assist.
Its should be pointed out that the rogue in question is currently wearing ilevel 245 shoulder’s purchased from badges so he would have replaced the shoulder’s in a matter of days … looks like he got over it
Keeva, I wish I had time to read all your comments here, because I’m sure you’ve answered this… but just to clear up.
Had the rogue not been such a putz and said “Oh geeze, I would have really liked that
” you would have said “Here, I was rolling for my offspec and wanted to make sure it didn’t get sharded” and given it to him. Am I Correct?
If so, then I totally agree with you and I would do the same thing.
It’s impossible to type (unless it’s macro’d)
–> “I know feral is my offspec (at the moment) but I would really like that piece if no one else is interested in it for their current main spec”
before everyone hits DE.
I know it’s impossible because I’ve tried.
And unless you hold up the group, wait and see if anyone else needed, then type that all out and THEN click need, you’re going to get a lot of flack from people.
until Blizzard makes an official set of rules saying you can only get gear for your main-spec, i don’t think what you did was bad. roll need on gear you can use otherwise it would be disenchanted.
also, since no one objected to the dps DK winning the tanking plate, i think that sets the precedence for how your group was going to deal with loot.
and if it is expected you should announce to the group that you will be rolling on “off-spec” gear before the run, then it should be expected that any loot dispute should be settled in a polite manner regardless of whether an announcement was made before hand.
lastly, it’s loot from a heroic, an attempt can be made the next day, so what’s the big deal about the rogue losing? and from someone’s comment, apparently he/she got over it quickly.
eh, whatevers. i just wanted to say i see nothing wrong with what you did. it’s hard trying to gear up two specs, especially when you are a hybrid with two really different specs, ie melee and casting specs.
I’m sorry but I disagree.
I play a DPS. I wear cloth. In a 5 man I have 2 other people also playing as DPS. That’s a lot of competition for gear.
Does it make me greedy to expect only 2 other potential players in my 5 man might also want a trinket that I want? I don’t think so. Does it upset me when I lose out to a healer? Yes.
As a healer you’re cutting your queue times down significantly. As a DPS I’ve waited 15 or so minutes to get in.
But I choose to play DPS. That’s the role I prefer. I wouldn’t feel right queuing as Discipline, getting a 1-5min wait for a group for Pit of Saron, and then rolling against potentially 3 other players for the trinket that I so desperately want for Shadow that drops from the last boss.
With different queue times, I don’t think that’s fair.
I do think it’s a good thing that you’re notifying your groups in advance now. At least that’s something.
Cassandri´s last blog ..Breaking Down Gnomeregan
My personal preference is to ask first before rolling on any of my offspec stuff. Just like Keeva said if someone says they really want something and it’s for the spec they are in then I’d be happy to pass for them. I think it’s just common courtesy to communicate with your party members – somthing unfortunately that seems to have gone by the wayside with the new LFD
That’s the thing with Keeva’s example – that rogue was just downright rude. If he had an issue with her roll there are better ways of expressing it than spitting and dropping group…
There’s only one thing though that bothered me… Keeva, you mentioned that you don’t like to do feral dps in 5 mans at all. It just seems a little strange to roll on gear dropping in a 5 man when you don’t intend to use it in those same 5 man instances. Of course if nobody else needs it then it’s fair enough to pick it up but actively planning to roll on feral gear seems a bit odd to me. You’ll have to forgive me if I’ve misunderstood you on that point!
Wow, loot drama!
If we are talking heroics, grab what you can. I wouldn’t even bother with that macro.
In less than 10 minutes you can be in a new run with fresh people, and you will be unlikely to ever see those players again.
For raids though, I would go with the “you can only roll need for gear for your current spec”. Though most raids use master loot so it is easy to sort out who should get something.
There was some drama when the lfg system was introduced, on my server it is standard to roll need on the frozen orbs. But these days everyone does it, as well as boe blues. The market has dropped out on them anyway.
I am also seeing a tendency for some people to roll need on anything they can on the final boss. No doubt figuring to ninja what they can to sell or de before dropping group and re-queuing.
“In less than 10 minutes you can be in a new run with fresh people, and you will be unlikely to ever see those players again.”
How is that an excuse for anything? Because we can’t be held responsible we’re supposed to act like idiots? No thanks.
“But these days everyone does it, as well as boe blues.”
This varies for every battleground. On mine, everyone greeds on the orbs and on the blues, people only need on blues when they’re an upgrade.
As for the general “it’s just a heroic”… well, yes and no. Most of us have limited time, so “just run it tomorrow” might mean 1 more week until you see that item, which might mean you’ll miss out on some raids and so on. I know it will never happen, but people, think of the other people in your PuGs. They’re actual people, not just pixels.
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
Wow Keeva nice post
I agree you should have never be forced to play a certain spec to get certain loot! Its all my the loot system which is flawed. The game can allready tell which spec you are – have a look at the tab when your on the spec screen! A bit of code and some effort and when rolling for loot there can be ONE need button which is smart and decides if the loot you are rolling on is your main or offspec! that way you can roll for any main/offspec and not piss people off.
Oh and @cyslush
January 14th, 2010 at 12:51 AM
“The rogue doesn’t automatically deserve an item more than I do because he intends to use it in a particular way.”
Actually, he deserves it more than you because he uses it 100% of the time he’s playing, including right now when he’s stabbing the mob that drops the item you’re rolling on. He’s in a group using his skills to help himself and 4 others have a shot at loot. By sharing the results of his gear and efforts he deserves the piece before you, who will only use the piece part time and not use it to help others kill mobs and get loot, only to solo.
I don’t see you have a leg to stand on here. It just makes you look selfish to me.
So what your saying is he derserves the loot which he WOULDN’T get if keeva wasn’t there healing everyone in the group? It a team game and you need everyone doing their role to get ‘lootz’ so why shouldn’t Keeva get a chance to role on ‘rogue’ gear?
At start be curtious and explain you intend to role on dps gear like people have said above. Personally I role on both specs if its an upgrade, but if its an offspec and someone else roles I look at their gear first and if it’s a big upgrade I pass, because you get alot of people wanting the gear for gold even though the loot is for the main spec. Take every run on its own merits.
@Cullie – so if the rogue rolled on healing gear, no one would be upset, right? He contributed to the run after all….
@Keeva – sorry for trolling your comments, but I’m really bored at work…
Jen´s last blog ..We’re not (all) that bad
It’s a known rule that a tank gets first pick on all rough stones. How could you not know that? What’s next? Or you going to steal the kobolds candles? Mean girl…
But I think he was leveling blacksmithing which requires stones.
The rough stone story made me laugh.
@cullie “So what your saying is he derserves the loot which he WOULDN’T get if keeva wasn’t there healing everyone in the group? It a team game and you need everyone doing their role to get ‘lootz’ so why shouldn’t Keeva get a chance to role on ‘rogue’ gear?”
And Keeva wouldn’t get the loot if DPS wasn’t there. You try soloing ToC as a healer and see how far you get.
I’m arguing that you should get first crack at the loot for the role you’re doing in the team. Others are arguing that everyone should get first crack at all loot that they want, regardless of what they’re doing for the team, something which penalizes classes like rogues who only do one role and have much fewer options when it comes to useful gear.
When it comes to loot you can use, the hybrid healer is looking at healing gear, spell gear, and dps gear. The rogue can ONLY use dps gear. Considering he’s willing to dps for you right now, why not let him have first crack at the dps gear? That’s something Keeva said she would do normally anyway.
@Cassandri – You dungeon system queues you up with a full caster group?! I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. At most I’ve seen two casters in my group, but never 3 casters that I can remember.
Usually I find the dungeon finder tries to diversify the groups. I *always* have at least 1 melee. And I can only think of a handful of times that I had two casters in my groups. Usually I get 2 melee and one caster; or 1 melee, 1 caster, 1 hunter.
In all honestly, in my experience in my battle group, it’s the DPS plate wearers that have the most competition for loot. I’ve often been in a group with Plate tank, Retadin, DK. Brade often queues on his warlock and is the only caster in the group.
I do believe that the dungeon finder tries to smart queue so that there isn’t gads of competition for the same items in one group.
Beruthiel´s last blog ..And This Is Why There Are No Tanks…
@Jen
Erm the point is Keeva can use BOTH healing and dps gear, a rogue cannot use healing leather so no its not fine a rogue can roll on healing gear because he has no use for it (unless it blizz makes it so its improves your bandages :P)
@Icyslush
It doesn’t matter what gear any class or spec can use or how much they can use it thats not the point of the post!
Its takes everyone in the group to work together true and in my view there is nothing stopping a class rolling on ANY loot they can use for either spec regardless on the loot tables as long as they can use the item! Doesn’t matter if there are not as many drops for a rogue with a pure role then a hybrid thats just something people are going to have to accept. Rogue willing to dps? erm last time I checked thats ALL he can do and if he’s not willing theres plenty of dps waiting to take his spot…
But I see the above as a shity attitude and one which I don’t follow. As I said I roll need on my role I am playing and greed offspec, but the point of the post is you shouldn’t be bullied into playing a role to get gear for that role.
Also when i was main spec healer I had to go into instance to get good feral dps gear so i had little choice but if there was a rogue I would pass to him. I like and can see your point of view but there is nothing wrong with rolling on loot for either of your specs.
Honestly there are equivalents to nearly everything elsewhere. You can get nearly every slot crafted or through emblems and often much better itemized and iLeveled. There are of course a few exceptions like rings, cloaks and trinkets that take longer to obtain, there’s much QQ over gear in the new 5 mans and don’t get me started on hilts.
That said on my main there isn’t a single upgrade for either spec outside of ICC or TOGC25. I don’t sweat it.
It’s nice when people ask if they can need but I don’t feel it’s necessary. I’ll pick DE/Pass/Greed on everything so if they really want it they had better Need it.
You can tell whether people intend on ninjaing Frost Orbs too as the ninjaers will pick need after everybody else picks greed while non ninjaers will just hit need right at the start.
I’m in favor of the ‘need for current job’ rule, but no-one gets to spit on our Keeva. It sucks that we have to play with 9 year olds.
I’ve been bitched at in a cross-server pug for needing on a str/stam ring (as my dk) because it had a few points of defense on it and I was dpsing. They were nice, so I gave it to him, but an upgrade is an upgrade, regardless of what position.
I think the warning is a good idea. I think a lot of groups would be okay with it, and as long as you ask, you’ll encounter a little less bitching. Even though I’m in favor of the rule, if you gave fair warning, I’d probably be fine with it.
@Beru Yes, it can happen. I’ve once been grouped with 2 other Priests and 2 Paladins. All caster DPS groups? Absolutely I’ve had those (and it runs well, too).
To all those people who say it doesn’t matter because you can just requeue a dungeon so take whatever you can, while you can:
I’ve been to Pit of Saron 20 times now. That’s approx 10 hours (if you assume a 30 min run). 10 hours I’ve invested for 1 item that I’ve seen once.
I know there are a ton of tanks who continue to run ToC looking for that elusive tanking neck piece. If a Ret Pally rolled on it and won? They’d be furious.
If the PoS trinket drops, I don’t want there to be a surprise moment where the Prot Paladin decides he wants it for his Holy set, a Feral Druid who wants to try it out as Boomkin and a Holy Priest who thinks, hey, it doesn’t SAY it’s only for damage dealing spells…
What I’m saying is I AM prepared to take a 1/3 chance at winning if it drops. I’m not prepared to take a 1/5 chance of winning.
Just because you’re a hybrid and you can roll on all types of gear doesn’t mean you should.
Cassandri´s last blog ..Tanks: How to Make Your Random Healer Love You
While I agree that the dps was being very immature, I do think it is unfair that resto druids who like to be cats/bears can roll on caster leather/cloth/trinkets/rings/necklaces and such, and also roll on dps leather/trinkets yadda yadda.
Now, what should be done there is either use your macro, which i say is very fair of you, or what I would do is announce ‘I am rolling on dps gear, but will pass all caster gear unless no one else needs it. if you’re not okay with that, tell me.’
if the group isn’t cool with that, re-que, or they can re-que, and everyone is happy.
Rolling on one set of gear and not the other is very fair, and often the dps will agree and be okay so long as they know ahead of time. Finding healers can be difficult and can take a chunk of time even with this new system, so many are fine with that.
Keeva said, in post 4
“I don’t subscribe to the “you must stick to gear that fits the job you are doing right this second” rubbish. I don’t like being feral in groups – I will never do it. So I *never* get to roll on feral loot? Sorry – nuh uh.”
If you will ‘never’ run feral in a group, why did you roll on those epic shoulders? Not being feral in groups leaves solo playing/farming. Aren’t there crafted epic shoulders that would have been sufficient for solo play.
The rogue most likely would use them in instances/raids and their groups would have benefitted from that upgrade. Outside of yourself, no one will benefit from you having those shoulders.
The rogue reacted poorly. However, he could have been 10 years old.
IMHO. Group members should only roll on the role use in the group. Rolling outside their role gives tanks and healers an unfair advantage, due to reduced wait times.
I am a prot pally and my usual queue time is less than 10 seconds. I could use that to my advantage and rool NEED on tanking gear, dps gear and caster (healing) gear. Again, IMHO, that just doesn’t seem right.
My off spec is DPS. What I will do is ask DPS if they want that item, if they don’t I will roll NEED, otherwise I will roll GREED.
I wish that the rolling system allowed for offspec rolls: NEED, OFFSPEC (will use it), GREED (will vendor) and DE.
Where NEED > OFFSPEC > (GREED or DE).
I agree that the best response in the future is to announce your rolling intentions prior to first pull. Someone else summed it up nicely ‘Finding healers can be difficult and can take a chunk of time even with this new system, so many are fine with that.’. It’s only because your role (healer) is in of short supply that folks will tolerate off spec rolls.
I don’t really think we’re all that far apart from each other, actually. If you throw out the indignation on both sides, almost everyone (bar a few trolls) is saying they would:
- Like to be able to get offspec gear in instances
- Would ask the group if anyone minds them rolling on offspec gear
- would pass to someone who said they would use the item as a mainspec
If “offspec” is the spec you are not playing right now, all of those points cover anything anyone would want, I think. I don’t see any drama coming if everyone did that and it would still allow people to gear up for offspecs.
One other thing would be the issue of the Pally tank and the DK DPSer both rolling on tanking gear: just because the pally didn’t say anything in party chat doesn’t mean he wasn’t pissed off that the DK rolled… or that the other players weren’t disgusted that he did. I personally don’t think the DK was in the right in that case either.
Dont even get me started on shaman rolling on leather dps/healer stuff and us banned from cloth rolls in raids. Different kettle of fish I know but with the same idea WTB raid who picks a loot rule and sticks to it for everyone. So no dps need rolls on tank gear till tanks have rolled, they can offspec role afterwards etc and the same for everyone else. In 5 mans just ask if u can need as you offspec if they guy doing the main job doesn’t want it.
If you dont need gear but are helping out in your role, tell them at the start and what loot you will be roling on instead dps/tank etc. I think as long as we know the loot rules groups/raids plan to use and they stick to them things are alot easier.
P.S If they’re gonna let a dk take tank loot of the tank, then you can take dps gear off the dps. If they dont like it they should have put their foot down earlier on in the raid, all’s fair in love and wow after all
U ROLL ON FERAL GEAH?!Ill have to post on the battlegroup forums about you miss.
Keeva/drucie/kiiva(who has 3 80 resto druids, srsly) the dirty ninja from Cael.
o btw #80
I’ve been screwed over enough by pugs that I just don’t care anymore. If its a pug, and I can use it, no matter my spec, its fair game. If someone ever posts about someone “ninjaing” something in a pug, the most common response is “lol pug”. HOWEVER, if it turns out to be a good group and the people aren’t jerks. I am perfectly willing to pass or trade.
Having read through a lot of the comments, I have to say, I really like the ‘extra choice’ buttons, especially if they came with different priorities. It would be even better if you could vote on your system before you entered, but that would get a bit complex.
It would be so great to be able to win a need offspec over a d/e, but lose a need offspec to a need main spec. I think that it would take a bit of getting used to, but it would solve a lot of problems. Most of them anyways… Like your rogue buddy proves, there’s no solving ‘jerk’.
[...] now I’m pretty sure they’d be peeved, looking at the responses to Hana’s and Keeva’s posts on rolling off-spec in instances using the “LFG” [...]
They’re right you’re a ninja, and if you don’t like it, YOU drop group. They shouldn’t have to take the 15minute debuff.
Did you even read the whole post?
The point is (following on from Hana’s post, that I was responding to), that we both saw offspec Need rolls and thought that was the norm. Then when we did the same, we were frowned at (or in my case, spat on).
The entire point of the post is that it’s difficult to know what you’re meant to do in groups when you coast along seeing offspec Need rolls all day, then when you do it yourself (even in the same instance!), you get in trouble for it.
Don’t you think it’s a bit hypocritical to label us ninjas when we were simply following what other people had been doing all along?
I had the same thing happen to me in ToC regular, not even heroic. I alwauys click “tank/heal” in the dungeon finder, though my main spec is bear. I was picked to heal the instance, and announced at the beginning that I am main spec bear, off spec tree. Either no one paid attention, or no one cared.
Skip to the end of the instance, and the Black Heart drops. I giddily click Need, as it is basically a BiS bear trinket for a very long time (I am not in ICC yet and do not do 25s). Cue everyone insulting my family and heritage, and questioning my sexual preference.
While I was trying to explain that, as I said, I am main spec bear, the tank kept popping open a trade window with me (I guess to get me to trade it to him) and I had to keep stopping to close it. In retrospect, I should have just left the group instead of continuing to deal with their abuse but I guess I thought I could make them see reason.
In the end, I ended up /afk-ing with the Black heart in trade to the tank. A jerk move? Yes, but I feel it pales in comparison to the abuse they laid on me for rolling on a trinket my main spec needs.
This “your main spec is what role you are playing” is hogwash, plain and simple. I realize it prevents hybrids from just saying “my main spec is XYZ!” and rolling on whatever they like, but it also prevents folks with a legitimate need from rolling on upgrades simply because they were nice enough… yes, NICE ENOUGH, not selfish enough, to heal or tank for you instead of glutting the DPS queue with yet another DPS.
I am not sure if you are still having this problem, but fyi, I folded my announcement macro into my buff spell. So now, whenever I GOTW the group it announces to them my intent to roll on tanking upgrades that drop (though there are few) even if I am healing or, gasp of gasp, get randomly picked to dps (it’s happened). I can’t ever forget to click it since people like to remind me as soon as I zone “PAW? PAW? PAW?”
Yes, maw, I’m getting to the buffs, keep yer britches on
This just shows that morality takes a huge downfall when the system doesn’t work well. You’re there to do job A, others are there to do job B and job C. I can’t see any reason to why one focusing on their job, would not have prioritation on items required for them to do their job. And why do you look at others acts to base your own morality on. Is it that flawed to begin with? Show some backbone at all times, otherwise the newer generations will never learn to judge right from wrong.
@snuzzle
If tree is your ‘off’ spec does that mean you only roll ‘greed’ on gear with +spellpower?
*rolling eyes at all the LOOT DRAMA*
Your macro is a good thing, IMO, Keeva. I’m with you in that I normally would wait to see if someone else in the group needed an item that was for a spec I wasn’t performing in the instance – but those mental slip-ups do happen, and with the Disenchant option in the game, it’s much better to err on the side of Need then trade. If the rogue hadn’t immediately thrown a hissy fit, it could have been resolved.
Thankfully, right now all my level 80s who have dual specs that require different gear are beyond heroic gear levels (with the exception of a very few items in the heroic ICC instances, for my non-healy specs).
On those few items that I may actually need for any spec in any instance, I really don’t care enough to flip out about losing them on a genuine lost roll to someone who could use them. I may or may not see them again. Chances are, I’ll get something better before too long. If I’m queuing for a particular instance for one particular item and that’s all I want, I’ll announce it. If I lose the roll, so be it.
I absolutely abhor the disenchant option. That’s going to be another full fledged rant for my blog, I think. I’m catching up on your recent posts, Keeva, and it’s giving me blog fodder XD
[...] now I’m pretty sure they’d be peeved, looking at the responses to Hana’s and Keeva’s posts on rolling off-spec in instances using the “LFG” [...]
You try to justify rolling off spec vs someone who is rolling main spec on an item because you’ve seen a few kids roll on dps gear when they were tanking in a pug?
I think you need to face it, its a dickhead move to take an item that someone is needing when its main spec for them and off spec for you.
The point of the post is that rules differ from server to server, and when you do heroics all the time and rolling Need on offspec is an everyday thing, then it’s confusing when someone /spits on you when you do the same.
I’m not saying “the DK did it, so I’m gonna do it too”, taking example from “little kids” and using it as my green light to do whatever I want. No. I’m saying that (like Hana from the original post) I thought it was fine because it seemed like standard practice, from most of the groups that I had been in over the weeks/months prior.
Some people believe that there are black and white rules. There are simply not. You might think it is a “dickhead move”, for other servers it is standard practice to Need if you need, regardless of spec. There are other practices on other servers that I think are stupid – like when I used to be on a server where everyone would always pass on every item (including greens) and then /roll 1-100 for them manually. But you can’t dictate the rules for another server.
And when the servers are mixed together through LFD, there are bound to be problems because people’s preconceived ideas of “normal loot rules” simply do not transfer cleanly across to the other servers.
To be clear, its not being a ninja to need on an item that is off spec or a different spec to your current role.
It has been said that there is no rule for what you can need on, that is very true.
I would be surprised if anyone argues the following point:
In a p.u.g. it is common courtesy to pass a main spec item to the person who is running that role in the group at that time. (healer passes tank item to tank if he needs it)
If people follow this rule, which the vast majority do, you can run the instance as a tank and get priority on the item. That might suck but that’s the way it goes.
Let me put it this way. Warrior tank rolls on trinket. Druid healer rolls on same trinket and wins. Healer rolls on healing cloak. Warrior cant roll on healer cloak, even if he does its worthless. That is not fair.