Raid lockout changes – why I love it (but why I fear for 25s)
24hours and counting on my migraine, so I can’t make any promises regarding coherency here. But I wanted to share my (initial) thoughts on Blizzard’s announcement that in Cataclysm they will be putting 25s and 10s on the same lockout, with the same loot.
* 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
* 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
* 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
* 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
* Content will continue to be gated
* First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
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On separate achievements:
“There will just be raid achievements, not 10- vs. 25-player versions in most cases. The achievement won’t care if you complete it in 10s or 25s. If we do meta-achievement mounts, it’s possible we’d still have different colors of mounts, or maybe even different mounts; but for some players that might mean that 25s feels mandatory again, which would be a potential problem. This is the kind of thing we’re going to have to consider carefully, and again, we might try a few different implementations before sticking with something we like. “
“Overall, our goal is that you make the decision between whether to raid with 10 players or 25 players based on what you find fun and not because of the reward structure. ”
YAY.
Sadly though, “fun” won’t be enough to drive many people to stick with 25man groups. Reward structure is why most people do 25s.
Now this is a true shame. I do believe that this will be the death of 25 man raiding – assuming that all raid content in WoW will be open to 10 and 25 man raids.
Why?
Easy. The raid weekly quest. When was the last time you got 25 people together to do the raid weekly quest? Never. You always grab 10 people to do it, why not? It’s easier to organise and the loot isn’t a deciding factor.
Coordinating 25 people to all show up is one thing. Coordinating 25 people to all do the right thing at the right time, do good DPS, do good healing/tanking, run out of fire etc is harder. It’s just plain harder.
I’m actually quite sad about this because I really really enjoy 25 mans. But everything comes down to gear. And I can’t see myself being able to convince 24 other players to raid with me without the lure of loot.
What I’d like to see is multiple raids – some only for 10 people, some only for 25 people, different content filling the same tier gear. Why can’t there by a 25 man that drops Tier 11 that’s totally different content to a 10 man instance that drops the same Tier 11 and ilevel? ZA in BC was similar ilevels to Tier 5/6 from memory.
Cassandri´s last blog ..Revisiting Sunken Temple
What annoys me is that the challenge of 25s can be broken down into two things:
1. finding 25 people
2. the higher chance you’ll have bad players
Basically.. there’s a higher risk that you have people who stand in fire or green clouds, because you have more people in the group.
There are some encounters like LK where having more people on the floor will directly affect your survivability (ie – Defile), or fights where being close together means blowing other people up. But other than that, I’m not particularly convinced that 25man raids are more challenging.
I want to be challenged by the boss. Not challenged by the number of people online, or the statistical probability that X% of them will pull bad DPS or stand in fire. Y’know?
Bah 10s and 25s give different challenges to the same fights. LK and Blood Queen are easier when vent is clearer and you have more room, less friendly fire. Blood Princes is much harder in 10s because you have more assignments, and some classes manage much better than others. Trying to do 10man Princes with 2 Shadow Priest is a goddamn nightmare that I’ve lived through using my WAND.
It’s not about the difficulty. I’m always saddened when I scale down to 10s and visit the same bosses – 1 vs 25 means that the boss you’re facing is 25x tougher than you are as an individual. How can the Lich King triumph over the entire Argent Crusade but be defeated by 10 people? Right or wrong, that’s how my brain works and 25 mans make the bosses feel more powerful, and more satisfying when you triumph.
Cassandri´s last blog ..Revisiting Sunken Temple
I disagree with you on many points, but it was definitely a nice change to read the other point of view without it being crammed down my throat that 25s are bad.
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Thanks.
I am biased at present because I miss 10s.. but I do try to be as even-handed as I can.
I’ve been a 40 man raider, then a 10, then a 25, then a 10, and now a 25 again. So I can see both sides.
I like the epic feel of larger raids; but more and more I’m tiring of the drama that goes with them. If I could find 24 people with my same mindset – who didn’t AFK for extended periods, who didn’t beg for a summon because they’re “stuck in Orgrimmar and my hearth is down”, who could dodge ghosts.. then I would stick with 25s.
But the frequent feeling that you’re pushing a chunk of your raid uphill.. it’s too much. I should only have to worry about my own performance, not get frustrated at people not pulling their weight. A problem that is not as prevalent in smaller groups.
I love 25s.. but I think I’m over the garbage that comes with them. And I don’t really buy the “but those struggles are what makes them more fulfilling” line. Wrangling 25 and pleading with people to be online doesn’t make a fight feel like more of an achievement. It just gives me more migraines.
Keeva,
I’d say that drama isn’t 25 man only. I find it more in 10 mans. It’s why I don’t stick with 10s. Too many free loaders from the 10s guilds I’ve known and ran with.
If 10s would leave their garbage, as you say, I’d look into them. But in the end the reason people don’t come online is content. Wrath content has been breezed through in comparison to TBC content. The decent guild the even barely tries downs the boss and has gear. The challenge has been removed from raiding. Strategies are barely used and people would rather see plentiful and equal shiny purples than challenging content. It seems the proverbial shoe is on the other foot. Hardcore raiders were bashed for their take on loot meaning something in previous expansions and now loot is the driving force behind this change. Blizzard even shows us this by saying loot will be equal. I mean if it wasn’t there would be an outcry of it being unfair.
I think however Blizzard has made balancing the two easier. With gear equal boss health will be easier to control. It’ll be simply up the boss health and his AP/SP. A much easier and simplified version of what we have now.
Yeah, I’m against the equality of gear and the shortening of dungeons. We will never agree on it probably, but in the end have fun! Either way someone will be having fun!
Aleanathem´s last blog ..No, that’s my next post!
Absolutely fantastic post, Keeva.
Thank you
Soph´s last blog ..The new raiding changes 
Great post.
Your point about the reasons why 25s are harder says it all for me:
“On the other side of the street, you have 25man raiders rightly claiming that 25man raids are harder to coordinate – it’s harder to wrangle 25 bums into seats, for a start. Harder to keep recruitment running, harder to deal with attrition, etc. There’s usually more drama in 25mans, more cliques, more pressure on officers to “run” things”
Yeah it’s harder, but these are all social things, not gameplay things. I think Bliz has done just about all they can to streamline the 25s, by homogenizing classes etc. It’s always going to be a pain to wrangle that many bodies.
I guess what I see people saying is “Yes – 25s are harder to organize and more annoying, so why will anyone do them any more?” I think Bliz is saying, “Why should we force you to beat your head against that wall?”
“25man raids to be difficult for 25 people, then they can balance 10 man raids for 10 people”
I’m really not sure that 25 mans and 10 mans can ever be even close in terms of difficulty. Take fights where positioning is everything. The area is the same size in both types of raid, yet in one you have to find space for 25 bodies and in the other there are only 10. The smaller the raid, the easier the fight. Then you have mechanics like sheep/mindcontrol etc, you can’t have bosses mind-controlling multiple people in 10 mans, but you can in 25 mans.
My fear with this, is A. fights may become slightly more boring because it’s hard to make things work for both 10 and 25 people and B. the content won’t be anywhere close to equal in difficulty.
I personally prefer 25 man raiding, but as someone who has been an Officer in raiding guilds, I can see the attraction of just running 10 mans come Cataclysm.
I’m also a bit unsure about the shared lockout. I can’t help feeling choice is important. I tended to do primarily 25 mans but I’d always help friends/guildmates out with 10 mans. Luckily I have a stable of alts, but I’m not sure its fair to people who are happy with only one character.
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Great post Keeva, I agree 100%. As a former RL for a 25 man guild, I can give you examples that I experienced of all the painful reasons you listed (and then some believe me) of why 10’s are much more desirable than 25’s, at least for those running the raids.
I did enjoy the aspect of the 25’s feeling more ‘epic’ in scope and of course, the big reason why probably anyone runs 25’s, the loot carrot dangling in front of you.
But these days I run in 10’s and man, it’s just so much more… fun
Hell, I could care less about the loot difference or achievements or whatever… I’m just enjoying raiding again. I never raided in Vanilla Wow, but having been a 25’s Raid Leader, I can just imagine the utter nightmare of trying to run a 40 man raid guild. Ugh. Just… Ugh.
Is the shared lock-out/same loot the death of 25 mans? I honestly don’t know. But if they do make all the loot/achievements/rewards exactly the same in both 10’s + 25’s, I personally don’t see a reason to ever run a 25 again.
It seems that most people do not read the blue posts very well, if at all.
The benefit for 25s in cata is that they will drop more loot and badges (points) PER CAPITA than 10s. For example, if the 10 man version of a boss drops 2 pieces of loot and 2 badges the 25 man version may drop 7 pieces of loot and 3 badges, more loot and more badges per person in 25 mans.
I personally think that most good raiders will get into a nice 10 man team with other quality players and not mind less loot per person because they progress quickly and have an easy time organizing.
At the same time I expect that many “failplayers” will continue to insist that 25 mans are the only “real” raids and that you are not a “real” or “serious” raider if you run 10 mans. They will loudly proclaim how fail everyone else is for wasting their lockout on a lowly 10 man raid. So they will attempt to organize 25 man raids but will not progress very far due not only to not only their own level of fail but also due to the fact that most quality players will be saved in 10 mans. After failing to progress they will go to the forms and complain about the people in 10 mans are getting their gear in “easy mode” and how its not fair and how the obvious solution is to nerf …something. When you read this on the forums halfway through cata, think of this post.
In fact, you don’t have to wait. The blogosphere has exploded with the elitist cries of “not fair” and “I raid 25s so I am entitled to… something”. I am actually rather disappointed with a few bloggers who I normally respect and enjoy and am concerned about the freshness of their underwear.
On the death of 25 man raiding, I say too bad. If people stop running 25s en masse it means they don’t enjoy running 25s and are only doing so now because they are artificially incentivized to do so and don’t want to “let their 10 man team down” or “fall behind”. What I really take umbrage with is people like Lissanna at Restokin who say they love 25s and do it for the feeling of “epic grandeur” that you get from downing a boss with 24 other people and then turn around and say that if Blizzard doesn’t incentivize 25 mans over 10 mans that they aren’t going to attempt to fulfill their duties as officers to their guilds and make idle threats to “quit playing”. I hate to say it but she went from respected member of the community to troll with a few keystrokes.
You mentioned a few things that I have been talking about myself lately. One main point is how 10 mans appear to be easier than 25 mans. Right now there isn’t a real difference from a mechanical standpoint and that they are tuned appropriately for the amount of players. The reason 10 mans appear to be easier is because most raiders out gear 10 mans (even ICC 10 right now). If you have gear from ICC 25, you out gear ICC 10. If you have gear from ToGC 25, you out gear ICC 10.
Another important point, and one that I think will become more painfully apparent in Cata, is that 10 mans are more unforgiving of individual mistakes than 25 mans. A FailPlayer in 25s gets carried, a FailPalyer in 10s wipes raids. I think 25 man raiders will be in for a rude awakening in Cata when one week they can’t fill their 25 man and decide to run 10 mans instead and see each others individual FailPlay magnified and can’t cover it up by out gearing the instance.
@Aleanathem: I respectfully disagree. With 10 person raids, you have a clear and concise idea of who is messing up and who isn’t. I know some people who won’t do ICC 10, but will do ICC 25 for just the reason that their mistakes are less visible.
I think the 10/25 shared lock will work out perfectly. Recruiting progression guilds will run 25 mans and will be rewarded with more drops, allowing them to be geared faster. 10 man guilds/teams will do what they do now, with the added bonuses that Keeva mentioned in her article (perfect, btw), and the poor slobs that make up the rest of the WoW population and just want to get real gear without making a life commitment will have a chance in hell of pugging through it. After the initial QQ is over, and people get used to it, it’s going to be great.
I agree with your thoughts 100%. I really think that it will shrink the size of people doing 25’s since it is quite a bit more difficult, but at the same time it will foster more interest in raiding because as I think most people progress through their “wow lives” they get to the point of being more interested in spending time with their friends than fighting 24 other people for tokens.
I find this situation somewhat similar to the Arena seasons – back in BC, people did arenas (myself included) simply for the loot. It was higher quality loot with much less time investment (assuming you had a decent amount of skill) than say, TK or Sunwell. Now, people still arena, just not as much as before. There will still be a demand for 25s.
Not much has been said about the guild talent trees yet, either. There could still be larger/different bonuses to 10/25 man raids in the trees. I think people are overlooking that quite a bit as well.
[...] over at Tree Bark Jacket has the unique experience of having run a 25 man guild, and then having run a 10 man guild only to [...]
I am more upset about the same gear dropping than the lockouts being shared. Im one of those people who longs for the days when you in IF or ORG and stop dead in your tracks because you see someone with gear you have never seen before. I know that seems dumb
I cant tell a difference between my Sanctified Lasherweave and normal Lasherweave, That bugs the crap out of me. Now EVERYONE will look the same
Like Max said you will get more loot/badges/gold from killing 25 man bosses so there is some incentive to do 25’s over 10’s. I think this could be good because I know I am sick of nobody showing up to our Sunday raids with only Lich King left. This way we can just take 10 people in and finish it up
Nice post, Keep up the good work!
Michael´s last blog ..Gotcha! – Gondria