A little bit of history repeating itself
Despite the title, and despite the content, this is a relatively positive post. Just sayin’.
The game is very cyclic. I’ve said this all along, and I’ve come to accept that most of the time, most raiding guilds will have a use-by date that they will reach, and no matter how successful they are, how good the atmosphere, how long the relationships, how aggressive the recruitment – sometimes there’s just no way to salvage raiding, because the announcement of a new expansion plants a seed in the minds of a lot of raiders.
I remember standing at Thorium Point, with 35 people online, and having to give up. Guild split. Heartbreak.
I remember standing in front of the Sunwell, /dancing with SOS members, hoping we had enough priests for Felmyst, and having to give up. Guild disband. Heartbreak.
I remember standing in Dalaran, after two raid leaders leave in quick succession; having a bit of an exhausted cry and giving up. Rival guilds sent condolences through PMs, and my awesome guildies pulled together enough people to go back in.. but it wasn’t enough. No disband, but we shrunk down to only a handful of friends. Heartbreak.
And now, again, attrition claims enough people to make it too difficult to keep trying to LK25 heroic.
Lol fail
T-minus not-very-long before the vultures start circling, and post harassment on the realm forums.
But hey, what can you do. We tried, and we didn’t get there. We’re by no means special; this is happening (and has happened) to many guilds out there. The expansion is coming, the current content is losing its lustre.. now is the perfect time to take a break, go play StarCraft, get some sunlight, etc. I know that we’re not a “fail” guild. It’s sad that we didn’t get there, but we didn’t fall apart in the process, at least. I’m happy for the guilds who got there (or will get there soon). Mostly though, it’s not the Lich King that will kill guilds, it’s attrition. That doesn’t make a fail guild, it just makes a tired one.
If powerhouses like Death and Taxes can die from a slow bleed, then none of us are immune either.
Obviously, I have that heavy feeling still, the heavy feeling that we (the Management) failed our guild. We couldn’t get them the LK kill. It’s great that we got there, after almost faltering before (but taking a break to recharge), and I’m proud of that. We were at least attempting LK. But we couldn’t get them the kill. We couldn’t fix the leak in the boat.

Of course, it’s not specifically the fault of the officers, it’s a team thing. But I do shoulder a lot of the responsibility and wish I could have fixed things. Unfortunately, when it gets to the point that veterans are tired and need a break, it rattles the confidence of the rest of the group, and people start slacking. Not logging on for invites – staying on alts until they see that there’s enough people online, for example. Only problem with that is that if everyone thinks that way, then nobody will log on.. The frustration builds, the bickering starts, more people leave because they don’t like the atmosphere – which isn’t our real atmosphere, and that is always acknowledged in the farewell posts – and so the leak continues.
I’ve been saying for a long time that there will come a time that we should just stop. Stop pushing. Don’t drive the guild into the ground.
Boss kills in under 30 minutes or they’re free
Sadly, raiders of today (*waves walking cane around*) just have no stamina. Gone are the days of working on a boss for a month or two. I guess that’s not necessarily a BAD thing, but the upshot is that Blizzard’s “entry level” content and content-for-everybody meant that a lot of people grew accustomed to being able to blaze through bosses in an hour or two, rather than a month or two. Again, by itself, not a bad thing – but the problem lies in the last few not-so-easy bosses. The raid butts its head up against these walls, the wall won’t fall in a single night of attempts, and people decide that it must be an insurmountable hurdle.
And they either quit, or go join a guild who has already climbed the wall.
Only 418 guilds have killed heroic LK25. That’s pretty tiny. But I still think that many people have it in their heads that it should be a lot more easier to obtain than it is.
Live to fight another day
Molten Core: guild split
Sunwell: guild disband
Naxx: verrrry shaky ground
Ulduar: all but disbanded
Molten Core was a different guild.. but the TBC and WotLK ups and downs were with my current guild. History tends to repeat itself, and I was aware of that as we went into ICC. I didn’t want to be a defeatist of course, we have done very well in ICC and led the way for a long time. Lots of good times and triumphs. But I knew that once the expansion was announced and details ramped up, that once we were down to one or two bosses left and the content was becoming boring for some.. I knew it would only be a matter of time. I didn’t want to be Keeva the walking death knell, but yeah, I called it.
You can’t force people to want to play. If they’re tired, or bored, there’s only so much you can do to re-energize them.
We tried, in Sunwell. In Naxx. In Ulduar. It ended in disaster, with the guild pretty much exploding all over the place, and the officers with ulcers (or gone).

So this time around, I said no pushing. If we get to the point where attrition is starting to bite, we’re not going to go on massive recruitment drives, we’re not going to push our guild and ourselves to breaking point in order to get that final notch on our belts. “I would rather stop short of our goal and have the guild survive,” I said. I knew that at the very worst, the guild would be forced to “go back to” 10man raiding – and while didn’t say that in public because I didn’t want to discourage people from reaching their 25man goals, secretly I would have been thrilled to go back to 10mans. We had so much fun in TOC as a 10man guild.
It’s sad, I wanted to finish one patch/expansion “properly”. Although, I am not really the hardcore raider I once was. I’m not much of a fan of hard modes, to be honest. Some of them are fun, but most of them I just refer to as “more-annoying-mode”. Redoing the same boss, just made more annoying. Often causing more pain than the belt notch is worth, and fast-forwarding our attrition due to burnout, frustration, and boredom.
We’re just short of the mark. But this time, we’re not going to die (in a spectacular display of fireworks). Inexorable guild is Inexorable. By refusing to push the team (and the guild) to breaking point, we will live to fight another day.
Attrition has defeated our 25man raid team – but this time – we’re not dissolving, disbanding, exploding, dying, etc. The true stalwarts remain, and that makes me very happy.
A few of the old core will seek their HMLK kill elsewhere. Me.. I don’t care about it so much. I’ll go back later, in Cataclysm, and do it “for lols”. Two days ago I finally got my Ragnaros and Ossirian kills on Keeva. I’ll get the notch on my belt eventually.. I don’t particularly care about being able to trumpet that I killed X boss before Y date. For a lot of people that is a badge of honor; I care less and less these days about elitist badges of honor based on how speedily you kill something. I do not believe that killing C’thun or KJ or HMLK “pre-nerf” (etc) makes you a better (or more fulfilled) player.
I’ve changed. I’d rather see the content and enjoy the ride. I like progression, but I’d rather be 45th on the realm ladder and 3789th on the world ladder, playing with good people and having a great time – than 1st on the realm ladder and smothering myself with heroic mode stress and attrition pressure. Nuts to THAT.
For now, our 10man teams will keep working on HM LK, and we’ll regroup and see how many raiders we have, perhaps run some no-pressure 25s for gear, alts, like we did when we took a bit of a break a few months ago – 25man raiding without the must-do-heroics stress.
I’m sad to see people go, and sad we couldn’t get the HM LK kill that people wanted. But it feels good knowing that the guild itself isn’t (and never was) in jeopardy, this time around.
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This entry was posted by Keeva on August 24, 2010 at 9:07 PM, and is filed under Changes, Raiding. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site. Comment Policy - Comments are welcome! I don't mind at all if you disagree with what I have to say here, provided that a) you are civil about it, and b) you do not try to dictate what I should or shouldn't be writing on my blog. This is my corner of the web, and I reserve the right to edit or delete comments that I deem to be offensive. |



My name is Emma and I live in Australia. I’ve been gaming on and off since I was about 11. I won’t tell you exactly how long ago that was, let’s just say long enough.
about 1 year ago
Keeva, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from, and I think you’ve made the right call. I am gently trying to nudge our officers into acceptance of the same thing. That means the guild that split only a couple weeks after my husband and I joined will never see the LK on 25… and that’s normal. Only once a week do enough people log on that we can do 25, and we’ll run 8-10/12 bosses easily… but then no one returns to pick it up for the rest of the week.
Our core 10 team is still strong and is about to take up those last 3 heroic fights, Putricide, Sindragosa, and then LK, of course. But I’ve already told one of them that the pre-Cataclysm malaise IS setting in and we need to aware of that. So it may not happen… and that doesnt bother me in the least. I have downed the end boss of the expansion during current content, and THAT is what makes me happy. I was too young to do it in Vanilla, and the 10-man raiding guild I was in during BC obviously wasn’t going to get it done. And in spite of my friend’s kindness in bringing me in on the last 2 bosses of Black Temple two weeks before LK came out just doesn’t count. It was a lovely gift, but it wasn’t me WORKING my way through Black Temple like they had.
So, MY goals are made for this expansion… I’ve never been a fan of the regular/hardmode model anyway, so this doesnt bother me a lot even if I am willing to run them with my guild.
about 1 year ago
“The raid butts its head up against these walls, the wall won’t fall in a single night of attempts, and people decide that it must be an insurmountable hurdle.”
This so much. Our casual guild seems to expect 25 man bosses to fall over without work. Took us several weeks to get blood princes down and we’re trying to work on Blood Queen. But when we head for Bloodwing first, I get whispers from half the raid “Aren’t we going to do Festergut/Rotface for loot/badges?” Most of the raid needs like maybe one item from those bosses and perhaps badges for offset loot [I admit there are some exceptions but they don't usually whisper me]. But they also don’t want to try Putricide. We’ve gotten several requests to do Dreamwalker next because it’s gotta be “free loot” because of it’s ease on 10 man, despite the goal of a few weeks ago of getting another end wing boss down so we could have more tokens for our people.
Askevar´s last blog ..Malygos Stupid Awards of the week-
about 1 year ago
Mmm. I don’t think it’s a good idea to overtune content and force people to be stuck on it for months – but on the flip side, when content is accessible for many, then anything that won’t fall over within a night or two is deemed too hard/not worth the effort.
I fully understand people wanting to go get their achievement where they can, but it’s still frustrating to know that they wouldn’t have to if people would have more realistic ideas about how long a boss will take to kill.
Ah well.
about 1 year ago
The way I see it, this is inevitable and you made the right call. I don’t think there’s anything you officers might have done – guilt tripped people into signing up? They’d be unhappy raiders then, and unhappy raiders make stupid mistakes. My little guild is still working on wyrms (2 achievements to go), then we might or might not try LK heroic (10), but my boyfriend’s guild in the same situation as you. People are just tired; they’ve been wiping on LK heroic for a month if not more, and they’re progressing, but slowly. I can’t blame anyone for getting tired of seeing the same fight over and over, with little hope of getting it down. 418 guilds is a *tiny* number which proves the fight is still really, really, really hard, even with the buff. (And, unless you’re on a super progressed realm, I don’t think your raiders can just join another guild and kill LK… I don’t think anyone’s managed it on my realm yet, and the first LK 10 heroic was by the #1 guild with a 30% buff.)
Jen´s last blog ..We are filthy
about 1 year ago
We are currently in discussion with the guild on if we want to approach HM LK or not. Currently we’ve earmarked heroic Halion, and have been working on that.
If the encounter has been bleeding your guild, it only makes sense to stop the flow of blood. No encounter is worth sacrificing a guild over. And this is one encounter that has already claimed countless numbers of guilds, and will likely claim even more before all is said and done.
Take some time to do some “fun” things. I will wager that most of your guildmates – that are interested in community – will still enjoy the ride!
about 1 year ago
I really wish my guild would take this attitude. We’re bringing 22-23 people for progression night, and 2-4 of those players got grandfathered into raiding because we wanted a warm body, never mind that one of them refuses to flask and others just don’t seem to learn. It breaks my heart to see our Night Two’s set up to fail and wish someone were brave enough to call it.
about 1 year ago
Sad to hear the news, but happy your core is sticking it out.
My own guild is walking the line of barely scraping together 25 people for most raids, and people are starting to make mistakes on bosses we’ve been killing for months. I think there’s a lot of raiding fatigue going on right now in a lot of guilds.
I’m also not a big fan of hard modes, no one really wants to do the same bosses over and over. I agree that the earlier Wrath instances spoiled people, made them lazy and unwilling to work for boss kills. On the other hand, having bosses that require months of effort to down is just crazy. That isn’t fun and does nothing but burn people out and create stress on both individuals and guilds.
I don’t envy the devs the challenge of creating the right balance between difficutly and accessibility. I really hope they learn something from this though. Thinking ahead a fair ways, the end of Cata needs to come swiftly – no more languishing in the final raid instance for close to a year. It’s a killer.
Jasyla´s last blog ..Healing ICC- Deathbringer Saurfang
about 1 year ago
You said that raiders that wipes for a month or two are gone… I’m not in a hardcore guild and some fights in ICC (LK being the biggest) took weeks to down due to several factors…
All guilds get to a point where you’re wondering how it happened and if it can be fixed (I’m an officer in my current guild, its not easy at times). As long as the guild members know you’re trying to keep going even when it looks bad. People come and go, but its the core of the guild that decides to keep the guild breathing or not

In the end I believe its not about progress but about having fun with lots of people from all around the world. As long as you can keep having fun and laughs, the guild will keep going!
Moonra´s last blog ..Druids and Applying to a Guild
about 1 year ago
Respect, am feeling your pain, As raid leader facing the same situation you raise very valid points. wish you luck
Logbo´s last blog ..Bloodbathed Frostbrood Drakes all round!
about 1 year ago
Thanks everyone.
It’s definitely a more positive time, this round, than the previous pre-expac/pre-major-patch problems.
Because this time we know that Cataclysm will have shared lockouts, and we may not even be doing 25s then anyway – so dropping back to a 10man guild isn’t necessarily seen as failure, but perhaps as preparation.
I’ve personally felt like that all along – that if we drop back, it won’t be a big deal at all. And it’s been good to feel safe in the knowledge that the guild won’t explode, at worst it will shrink.
Big difference to how I was feeling at Sunwell and at Ulduar. Lots of heartbreak.
about 1 year ago
So true, I know this situation quite well. In my previous very nice guild people got tired and we could not down LK 10 normal in 60 tries or so – mostly because of rotation so we had to start from the beginning again and again.
So me and my wife changed it to finish the job and managed to do it with more powerful guild, but again, I see that most of people are eager to do first 8-10 bosses on 25 and skip Sindra and LK. This makes me amazed – why in the world you need loot if you do not do harder bosses in this uber gear? I am not a hardcore raider (2-3 raiding evenings per week is my preference), but it looks quite pointless to do the same bosses again and again.
Sad I never had 10 like-minded people. Best case was like 6 or 7 but anyway it was not enough to have rocking team that can do anything – with appropriate proportion of fun and challenge.
about 1 year ago
Yeah, Sindragosa essentially ate our tiny little 10 man guild.
All it took was 1 continuance on her (and the 4 hours of wiping that followed) to make tensions in the guild ride high enough to cause the raid lead to lose his cool. That spidered into a rage /gquit from our tank healer (who took the brunt of his diatribe), and some additional malcontent among the rest of the raid. Within the next week, he continued being malicious, and 2 more (including myself) decided that the raid leader was an asshat who was mistreating people and also left. So, CoS@Dalaran will remain 10/12.
I really wish there were more guilds around that can handle wiping on a boss. (Or will even hold a raid lock over, instead of sacrificing it for loot that none of us even need at this point.) If we don’t practice mechanics, make changes in positioning for the raid, try to troubleshoot problems.. people are just going to continue to be bad. Not every fight is tank and spank, and if it were, would we even want to play?
about 1 year ago
Well damn… you sound as cynical as me
The time before expansions is always rough. But as you say, things are cyclic in WoW, so at least we know the up-hill is just around the corner. Wait a minute, did I just sound positive for a second?!?!
Dr. Cynicism´s last blog ..Wednesdays Word- Meat-sweats
about 1 year ago
Subscribed!
Keeva´s last blog ..A little bit of history repeating itself
about 1 year ago
“I really wish there were more guilds around that can handle wiping on a boss. (Or will even hold a raid lock over, instead of sacrificing it for loot that none of us even need at this point.) If we don’t practice mechanics, make changes in positioning for the raid, try to troubleshoot problems.. people are just going to continue to be bad. Not every fight is tank and spank, and if it were, would we even want to play?”
This is so true, so many people want to down everything quickly and with limited times where you can get everyone together it can easily get annoying for those that are always ready when someone bails after a wipe or two or doesn’t really want to put in effort .. though I’m happy to say that after knocking a few heads my guild has decided to indefinatly extend a pair of raid lockouts until they accomplish their goals.
Jod´s last blog ..A Nostalgic Moment
about 1 year ago
Count me as another person who’s guild is petering out. For the last two months the only guaranteed 25 man night was Tuesday, somehow they’ve pulled it together so we’re back to three nights a week but it has been filled in with, well, warm bodies. Yes we have 25 people but half of them don’t flask, some don’t gem/enchant gear properly and a few have bad specs. Healers were having to beg to get replenishment for awhile and I can tell you that didn’t go over well.
I’m having to force myself to log on lately. Everyone wants to tackle hardmodes with this group and I’m so tried of beating my head against walls with subpar DPS, new tanks, bad composition and TONS of stupid mistakes. Even when we get bosses down it doesn’t feel like a win anymore.
At least the guild is in no danger of imploding/exploding and I’m thankful for that much.