Pink knickers part 2: Here are my own numbers
Ok, Mr not-so-anonotroll, you want analysis? I’ll analyse your face off.
First, let me say that I fully expect a bunch of troll comments telling me that I’m getting worked up over nothing, I’ve got too much time on my hands, I’m blowing things out of proportion. Lol umad? Nah, I just like analysing stuff, too. Plus, it’s a holiday tomorrow so I have time to write something big, AND now that I’ve finished creating my guide, I feel at a bit of a loss, and felt like writing, researching, citing. If you don’t care about this issue.. just skip it, it will likely bore you a lot. On the other hand, if you have genuine constructive criticisms, alternative arguments etc, please do jump in. While I don’t intend to tackle the actual gender equality issue here, nutting out the lore and stuff is something that really interests me a lot, so this has been very fun to research and write (though hard to drag myself away from Wowpedia at times).
Anyway, following on from our earlier discussion here on TBJ, it seems that a common counter-argument to mine is that if you can’t be sure something is definitely male (assigned a male gender in the game), then you can’t say it’s male; there are any number of mutations and outside pressures that could skew the perceived mob sex vs the actual mob sex (or lack of sex). A mob that “looks” male and “sounds” male isn’t necessarily male; a mob that is modelled after the female form could just have some kind of funky hormonal disorder. Logically, if we are applying RL body types to a fantasy game, then we should add RL maladies that could make women look like men, and vice versa.
So maybe they are giant, muscly, bearded ladies. Like this charming specimen. Basically: Mate of Magmothregar wants to have a word with me about assuming she is a man. Ruh roh.
This pesky mob, plus a few others out there that we *know* have females that look like the males (and look masculine to boot) is what puts a spanner into the whole argument that mobs don’t have to officially be named as male to be thought of as male by WoW’s players.
Or does it?

Examples of mobs in World of Warcraft that have identical male and female models & skins.
If it quacks like a duck
If a boss has no official gender, but looks male (has a beard, big pectoral muscles, wears a loincloth, and so on), then it will be perceived as male. And, for the purposes of the “there aren’t enough female bosses in the game” argument, these perceptions are important.
How many times have I been in a raid and heard even the obviously female bosses been referred to as “he”? I’ve lost count. “He has a cone attack”, “He’ll put a debuff on you”.. The default gender in the game is male. The exception to this seems to be that since lich-type mobs apparently wear “dresses”, they are often called “she”. Hyjal and Naxx strategy discussions caused me a bit of consternation.
Because male is the default gender, then most, if not ALL of the bosses that fall into the sexless/genderless basket will be considered by most people to be male by default. Their official sexless status is irrelevant – I really don’t understand why people don’t understand this – because we are talking about perceptions in the first place. How the gaming community *perceives* the balance between male and female. Therefore, how the gaming community *perceives* Baron Geddon’s gender or Mother Shahraz’s gender is vital to the discussion.
Is Mother Shahraz officially female? I suppose she isn’t if you take official to mean “stated by Blizzard on an official site or in literature.” But if you ask the general WoW population what her gender is, most (if not all) will identify her as female, straight away. She may not be officially female, but she is considered to be a “female boss”. To argue against this is, quite franky, ridiculous.
Some mobs have no sex because they are mechanical. Robots aren’t male or female. But quite often they are built with male humanoid bodyshapes, and this supports and cements the default gender as male for these mobs. Some people might see this as a bit of a stretch, but when you look at the various mobs in the game, you’ll start to notice this same male bodytype coming through a lot. When the default is already male, it doesn’t take much to cement in a player’s mind that a mob is definitely male. Broad shoulders, pectoral muscles, defined abdominals – they will perceive these as male, even if they know the mob to be mechanical and therefore incapable of being a particular sex.

The classic physical traits of male humanoids in WoW
Some mobs, like yetis for example, we know have identical males and females, and we only know the females from their titles (eg “matriarch”). So you could argue that we shouldn’t look at mobs without obvious female bodytypes and assume they are all males. Or even that we shouldn’t look at mobs with obvious male bodytypes, because who is to say that in that species, the females don’t have rockin’ abs, concrete pecs, square jaws, foot-long beards, and biceps the size of Christmas hams? That’s a fair comment. But the fact remains that the average person, upon looking at such a mob, would automatically assume it was a male.
Therefore, the perceived ratio of male to female bosses WILL ALWAYS INCLUDE the bosses that people assume are “male”, despite them not having the ability to reproduce sexually. When people look at Shahraz, they perceive her to be female. When people look at Ignis, with his massive beard and male humanoid bodyshape, they perceive him to be male. His technical gender status is wholly irrelevent because the entire argument here is whether people perceive the male/female boss ratio to be balanced.
If I count up all the female bosses in the game, I’m not going to cross off the ones that look, sound, act, and are named as being female but aren’t officially stated as being female. To me, they are female bosses, I perceive them as female bosses – and they count when I am measuring up the males vs the females.
To say “Oh, well, Shahraz looks female, she seems like a strong female figure to me, but she can’t technically be female because demons don’t sexually reproduce” is bizarre. She is a female boss! Why are we getting hung up on technicalities and specific anatomy?
Does anatomy count or not, then?
Ah, but there’s the rub – that’s when people will step in and say, “but if you don’t care about anatomy, then how do you know she is female at all? Hey, it’s a fantasy game, right? So we can make things up as we go along. Maybe in this particular species/people, all the males have breasts, pouty lips, small waists, and big hips? Maybe they all sound feminine, but because they are an alien species to us, we wouldn’t know! Maybe all the women have big pecs and like to go around shirtless, showing off their massive arm muscles? Who the hell are you, Keeva, to decide how their species works?”
So true. Blizzard could do whatever they liked here. Maybe those harpies, who all sound feminine and have breasts, are actually male, or mixed sexes? How do we know, one way or the other? We don’t.
But let’s be realistic here. To us, as humans, the norm is that when we are presented with a form that has wide shoulders, flat pectorals, facial hair, muscular arms, a bulging groin (in a loincloth or similar), a square jaw, and so on – we are going to assume male, unless told otherwise. Because it’s the path of least resistance. If we saw curves, painted lips, flowing hair, breasts, hips, a small waist, and a smaller, more lithe frame, we are going to assume female, unless told otherwise.
Of course there are plenty of animals out there that don’t fit these rules. I’m not saying males are always large, square, muscular, hairy, heavy beings, and females are smooth and soft and curvy and graceful. But the fact remains that if you take these attributes and throw them onto an avatar, the majority of players will identify them as being male and female respectively. It’s ingrained in us.
But.. Mate of Magmothregar. Seriously.
If a mob looks male to us (due to these ingrained ideas of what traits are considered male), but is labelled as female, either with pasted-on breasts or a feminine title, then we can force ourselves to accept that it is a female mob. Mate of Magmothregar is the perfect example. Everytime I look at them, I see a male mob – male features, male sound effects – but I am reminded by the title that it is actually meant to be a female, so I force my brain to accept this. And try not to think too hard about Magmothregar’s sexy times.
However, if a mob looks male and has no other indication that it might be female – if all signs point to it being male – then that path of least resistance leads us to believe that it IS male. Male body type, male voice, male title – it’s evidence enough for most people to accept a mob as “male”.
So the whole argument that it’s possible to have a female that looks like a male, and vice versa – is really quite irrelevant here. There’s a small number of mobs in the game that we know for sure have identical males and females, some of which are pretty ugly and (dare I say) lean towards being masculine (as mentioned above). But for the most part, where humanoids and humanoid-modelled constructs and elementals are concerned, the above physical traits, voices, and titles will make the average player assume something has an inherent “maleness”.
Mobs are often male by default, unless they have glaringly obvious physical qualities, or are named or announced as female. Basically, to be a male in this game, you just have to exist, and you’ll probably be classed as a “he”, even if you’re a glob of ooze with an impossible-to-pronounce name full of vowels, and no voice or lore to shed any light on the issue. On the other hand, to be recognised as female, you have to be labelled – either with a title, or with curves, or with a feminine voice.
Being realistic with the numbers
So, if the message Gevlon wants to put forward is, “See, Blizzard is increasing the number of (clearly) female bosses in the game” then he needs to:
a) be realistic and use common sense when assigning genders to the bosses that have CLEAR male or female attributes, because players WILL count these as male or female entities, for the most part;
b) look each boss up (at the very least!!!) to see if the lore, quest text or quotes clearly shows them as male, female, or doesn’t say anything at all;
c) do the math properly, including the genderless bosses to get an accurate percentage of the overall;
d) not delete bosses that aren’t available now, since we’re arguing about what was available at the time that people were playing;
e) not make inconsistent statements such as a female construct is “obviously” “meant” to be female, but a female demon can’t be female, and constructs built in the male image are not “meant” to be male; and
f) not compare full expansions with one tier of Cataclysm and claim that a 3:2 ratio of male:female is an accurate representation of Cataclysm’s gender balance!
While we can’t get a 100% accurate number of male:female (there are still some unknowns, and some elementals and beasts can cause confusion), taking these steps will get us as close as we can to being accurate. It’s still subjective at times, of course, but it’s a hell of a lot better than some of Gevlon’s rulings, considering I bothered to look up the lore, for a start.
Subjective rulings aside, the other issue is the inherently flawed math of removing all of the sexless bosses to only “count” the mobs that we know are definitely male or female (mostly due to the fact that they can reproduce sexually).
If we take Gevlon’s gender assessment numbers (without accounting for the fact that ZG, Naxx and Onyxia aren’t counted) and run them again, this time including the apparently sexless mobs, we get these results:
Neutral/unknown : male : female
Vanilla
62% : 32% : 3%
TBC
32% : 55% : 13%
Wrath
41% : 34% : 25%
Cataclysm
57% : 29% : 21%
As you can see, pretty different from his original female percentages of 8.3%, 16.3%, 39.3%, and 40% when you discard all of the non-humanoid/non sexually-reproducing bosses (note: I don’t know how he has counted multi-mob bosses and this has likely put the numbers out slightly – however, the main issue was that the sexless bosses was pushing the math out by a large margin).
Putting aside the fact that Cataclysm has only been out for a couple of months and therefore we don’t have the full boss list, if he ran the numbers properly, they would show an apparent drop in female numbers since Wrath (I am not making that argument though, because it’s ridiculous. We only have one tier to work with!).
In addition, Gevlon omitted Onyxia, Naxx and ZG from his list, because they are no longer available. Buh? They were available to us in Vanilla, and if you’re arguing that the balance was X in Vanilla, then you can’t delete a handful of bosses and say they are irrelevant!
OK, I’ll give the list a bash.
So let’s run the numbers again, taking into account all of the bosses that Gevlon has assigned neutral, but that have definite male or female physical attributes (enough to make them appear decidedly male or female to the average player) or titles, or lore notations, etc. I will show my work. If bosses are not mentioned, I agree with Gevlon’s assessment. Now, some of these *are* judgment calls, but I believe I have given good reasoning. Feel free to comment if you have different reasoning, though!
- Molten Core:
- Magmadar: I cannot find any solid reference to this hound being male or female. Corehounds can be either (eg Beauty), and while I think most people would say “he”, there’s no proof that I can find. Marked as “unknown”.
- Garr: Garr is a lieutenant of Ragnaros and I believe most people would say “he”, but again, no proof, and his form is not humanoid or recognisably male or female. Marked as “unknown”.
- Baron Geddon: Has the title “baron”. I believe that the average player would accept this boss as male, accordingly. Marked as “male”.
- Golemagg: Another boss built in the male image, and I believe the average player would readily accept this boss as male. Marked as “male”.
- Ragnaros: The Firelord. Though lord as a people/classification apparently does not always specify gender, his is a male title, and coupled with the obviously male voice and male bodytype, this is enough for most people.
- Blackwing Lair:
- Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamegor, Chromaggus: Again most people will say “he” by default, but I can’t find any lore/proof. “unknown”
- AQ20: dismissed by Gevlon as all neutral, my assessment is:
- Kurinnax: quest text says only “beast”. “unknown”
- General Rajaxx: The lore says, “The Qiraji general fixed his second claw onto Valstann’s bloodied form”. He is also built with the typical broad-shouldered shape and wears the loin-cloth type adornments that we see on many male mobs. I believe most players would assume that this mob is male. “male”
- Moam: Moam is a construct, a “grand body of volcanic rock.” Check out the pecs on this guy and apply some common sense. “male”
- Buru: Could be male or female, watching over eggs. The Silithid Queen is hanging out nearby, laying eggs, and Buru could either be her mate or a female worker. “unknown”
- Ayamiss: “the Hunter” may imply male sex (assuming “the Huntress” would have been used otherwise) but there are no real male traits, so I’m going to mark this one as “unknown”.
- Ossirian: the lore says he him his. Though he is an Anubisath construct, he is plainly built in the male humanoid image, with bare chested pectoral muscles, rippling abs, bulging arms, and so forth. Clearly male to the average player. “male”
- Zul’Gurub was also excluded:
- Onyxia: skipped over in Gevlon’s list for Vanilla. “female”
- AQ40: Gevlon says that “princess” doesn’t necessarily mean female. Right.
- Skeram – listen to his voice and tell me that anyone would think him female or gender neutral. “male”
- Three bugs – Mommy (princess), Daddy (lord), and baby. “male”, “female” and “unknown”.
- Princess Huhuran: Gevlon says that the title “princess” is “arbitrary”. Were it not for the title, I would put her as unknown – but any player who reads “Princess Huhuran” is going to know this mob is female. Common sense. “female”
- Viscidus is just a blob. “unknown”
- Fankriss & Ouro: could be male or female. “unknown”
- C’Thun: Often referred to as both “he” and “it”, I am reluctant to say. It has no obviously male features, so to err on the side of caution I will say “unknown”.
- Naxxramas: completely skipped by Gevlon because Vanilla Naxx has been removed. That pushes the numbers out badly! So I will add them here and for Wrath:
- Anub’Rekhan: is a lord, once kings of Azjol-Nerub. Listen to his voice. Cannot be genderless. “male”
- Maexxna: is described by an NPC as “she” and “her” and “giving birth”. “female”.
- Patchwerk: Referred to by an NPC as male.
- Four horsemen: counting them as 3 male, 1 female (Thane, Baron, Sir, Lady), to be consistent with other multi-sex bosses.
- Gluth: is a big puppy. An NPC calls him male, but I could understand if people didn’t assign him a particular gender, like Magmadar. Can’t leave him out though, so I will put him down as his assigned gender, male.
- Thaddius: constructed from the bodies of women and children (really bloody creepy hearing women crying out for help in Naxx), he is a construct and therefore has no official gender. However, considering that he has the same old pecs/abs/biceps/square jaw/bulging groin that says “hi, I’m a man”, I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find anyone who would look at his model and be unsure. Definitely a “male” boss.
- Karazhan:
- The Curator: another mob built with the male bodytype, I believe he is seen as male, but I will mark him as “unknown”.
- Illhoof: Satyr demon, very obvious male humanoid bodytype and long beard. Listen to his voice, look at his picture, and tell me he won’t be perceived as a male boss. “male”
- Chess event: is played against Medhiv. “male”
- Opera: The focus is on the tale here rather than the bosses, but to be fair I will count all of the NPCs that you have to kill. Romulo and Julianne; Dorothee, Roar, Strawman, Tinhead, Tito, and The Crone; the Big Bad Wolf. 3 female, 6 male.
- Beasts: three “unknowns”.
- Gruul’s lair: I need to count Maulgar’s 4 ogre buddies as bosses, to follow the precedent set by the 4 horsemen in Naxx, or the numbers will be slightly skewed. 6 males here.
- Magtheridon: a pitlord. He refers to himself in a very masculine voice as a lord. He simply cannot be perceived as female or gender neutral. “male”
- Tempest Keep:
- Void Reaver is mechanical but follows the usual male body type. He is generally assumed to be “male”.
- Kael’s buddies have to be counted separately, so that’s 4 male, 1 female in this encounter.
- SSC:
- Hydross: “Duke of Currents“. “male”
- Lurker: nobody knows. “unknown”
- Karathress: multi-mob boss – 3 male, 1 female.
- Morogrim Tidewalker: Gevlon puts him down as male, because giants “seem to have sexes”. Not terribly consistent with other statements about giants.
- Mount Hyjal:
- Anetheron: a dreadlord, stated as male, obvious male bodytype.
- Kaz’rogal: another lord (doomlord). Pecs, abs, loincloth. “male”
- Azgalor: another pitlord, listed as male.
- Black Temple:
- Supremus is a demon, and has that same male bodytype (wide shoulders, graphical representation of pecs & abs). No official gender but I believe his bodytype would make most people readily assume him male. “male”
- Mother Shahraz: so obviously a female, come ON. Body shape, voice, her title of Mother. But since she is a demon, Gevlon doesn’t count her, because curves and an “arbitrary” title don’t make a female boss. “female”
- Illidari Council: I am counting these as separate bosses, to be consistent. 3 male, 1 female.
- Sunwell:
- Sathrovarr: another dreadlord. Pecs, voice, yada yada. “male”
- Brutallus: another pitlord (not a pitlady). Plus, Madrigosa refers to him as male during the pre-fight scene. “male”
- Twins: counting as two (as Gevlon did)
- M’uru: is a being of light, and whether or not they have genders is unknown. “unknown”
- Obsidium Sanctum: I need to count the drakes as separate, as they are bosses in their own right. 3 males, 1 female.
- Ulduar:
- Ignis: “the Furnace Master”. Also follows the usual male bodytype – broad shoulders, heavy beard, super-masculine voice. “male”
- Kologarn: Look at this picture and tell me that anyone would think this construct is NOT obviously male. “male”
- Auriaya: as stated in my earlier post, Gevlon happily calls Auriaya a female, despite technically having no sex: “she is a titanic watcher, a creation, so technically does not have sex, but the titans (and the developers) created her to exactly mimic a female, obviously on purpose” – he makes this judgment call that she is “obviously” meant to look female on purpose, so we can class her as female. This is a huge contradiction to other classifications. “female”
- Assembly of Iron: I don’t know whether people see these as male bosses, or just iron things, but considering that it’s three male-type forms (giant, vrykul, dwarf), and they have masculine voice acting, then I am classifying them as such. If we are saying that Auriaya the construct is female because she is intended to look female, then the iron council is male because they are intended to look male. 3 x “male”.
- Mimiron: is modelled after male gnomes, and sports an impressive moustache. Being mechanical, he has no boy parts, but realistically, he is considered a male boss by most. “male”
- General Vezax: while women can be Generals, I believe that the title General cements the default assumption that a mob is male. Plus when he speaks, he removes all doubt.
- Yogg-Saron: Like C’Thun, it’s hard to find any evidence of gender, and despite many people calling it “he” for simplicity, I think people generally throw the old gods into a class of their own; they are “It”. “unknown”
- Algalon: is another entity built in the shape of a man, with a long flowing beard, and male humanoid bodyshape. He is definitely seen as a male boss. “male”
- Trial of the Crusader:
- Beasts need to be counted separately.
- Gormok is listed as male, though we know female magnataur look the same. However, magnataur all look masculine, and if you stumbled across one without a gender-specific title, I believe most people would think it male. “male”
- Dreadscale and Acidmaw are big worms, and I can’t find anything on their genders (or lack of). 2 x “unknown”
- Icehowl: listed as male, although he is another mob whose female counterpart is identical. In my experience he is considered male by default.
- Faction Champions need to be considered separately. The Horde faces 7 male, 5 female, plus two shapeshifted druids who, by their names (and usual naming conventions) are one of each sex. 8 male, 6 female. The Alliance faces 7 male, 5 female, plus two shapeshifted druids who, by their names, are both female. 7 male, 7 female.
- Twins counted as two.
- Anub’arak is a king. “male”
- Beasts need to be counted separately.
- ICC:
- Lord Marrowgar: is a lord, sounds like a dude.
- Gunship battle: The object of the fight is to “kill” the ship, yes, but the main opponent is a strong faction character – Muradin Bronzebeard or High Overlord Varok Saurfang. I don’t think you can disregard this as a gender-neutral “boss”. 2x “male”
- Festergut & Rotface: generally thought of as male, with male voices, but their bodies are not typically male, and being mashed together from various things, there’s no obvious male influence to them. 2 x “unknown”
- Ruby Sanctum: 3 male, 1 female boss.
- Throne of the Four Winds:
- The Conclave of Wind is made up of three Djinni lords of wind. Not only are they labelled lords, but they follow the usual male bodytype – broad shoulders, big pectoral muscles, muscular arms, and facial hair. They are clearly meant to be male bosses. 3 x “male”
- Al’Akir is known as “the Windlord”. He follows the broad-shouldered, bare-chested formula, and is referred to in Shadows & Light” as being male. “male”
- Blackwing Descent:
- Magmaw: Big worm, no clue. “unknown”
- Omnotron Defense: Big robots, modelled after males. In following with the Iron Council, I’m classifying as 4 x “male”.
- Maloriak: makes me sad. He follows the bare chest, loincloth, broad shoulders, bulging arms deal. “male”
- Atramedes: is a male dragon. He makes me sad, too.. poor little whelp. “male”
- Chimaeron: a hydra, no known sex. People seem to call it “him”, and he has a male voice, but I will class as “unknown”, since it’s a weird blob of dragon with only a voice to make it male, and that alone might not be enough to make him clearly male. “unknown”
- Bastion of Twilight:
- Ascendant council: All male bodytypes, all lords. 4 x “male”
So – let it never be said that I am not thorough!
Note: counting multi-mob bosses might be seen by some people as me trying to bump up the number of male bosses; but in reality if we are counting bosses like the Twin Eredar or Vrykul as one female “boss encounter” then that skews the numbers, too – is it one female boss, or two female bosses? The fairest thing, I felt, was to acknowledge them as separate but then give mark them as a proportion of one whole. So if a fight has 3 males and 1 female, that will be 0.75 of that one boss being male, and 0.25 being female. It totals 1 boss, but counts the separate genders. This keeps the numbers of boss encounters low, but gives a nod to the appropriate number of male and female characters.
Also, we forgot world bosses, summoned bosses, and PvP raid bosses!
- Vanilla: Emeriss, Lethon, Ysondre, Taerar, Azuregos, Kruul, Teremus, Omen, Baron Kazum, High Marshal Whirlaxis, Lord Skwol, Prince Skaldrenox, and Prince Thunderaan. All male except Ysondre (f) and Whirlaxis (? elemental)
- TBC: Kazzak, male (doom lord), Doomwalker & Fel Reaver (mechanical, but the usual male body type).
- Wrath: Storm Giant, Archavon, Emalon, Koralon, Toravon – all “male” as per Ignis.
- Cataclysm: Whale shark (“unknown”)
Now, importantly, we must remember that this list can’t be 100% correct because there are still some mobs that are just *perceived* as male or female, and I’ve made some judgment calls on the mobs that were pretty tough. I could have forgotten some, too. I’ve tried to be as logical and objective as possible though, and I truly believe that even if something is made of rock or fire, if it has a deep, booming voice, a long beard, bare-chested pectorals, a loin cloth, bulging biceps, a moustache, a bulging crotch, rippling abs (etc), it will most likely be seen by the general playerbase as a “male” mob.
Ok, so let’s compare and contrast. If you take my above list of corrections, include ZG, Naxx and Ony, make sure multi-mob bosses are counted properly, and still allow for the “genderless” bosses to be counted (though there are far fewer), here are my results, with Gevlon’s adjusted results underneath, and then his original incorrect numbers underneath that:
Neutral/unknown : male : female
Vanilla
21% : 66% : 12%
62% : 32% : 3%
N/A : 91.7% : 8.3%
TBC
10% : 75% : 15%
32% : 55% : 13%
N/A : 83.8% : 16.2%
Wrath
12% : 66% : 22%
41% : 34% : 25%
N/A : 61.5% : 38.5%
Cataclysm
15% : 73% : 12%
57% : 29% : 21%
N/A : 60% : 40%
Conclusions
Gevlon’s point is that the incidence of female bosses is on the rise, because Blizzard listens and wants to appease the feminists, or something. He gave a massive (relatively speaking) 40% female boss rate for Cataclysm – unfortunately basing the number on a really small sample size. Realistically it is 12%, and only for Cataclysm so far, rather than comparing a dozen entry bosses with 77, 59, 55 bosses from previous expansions.
If we use my numbers (not guaranteed to be 100% correct, but I believe they are very close, much closer than Gevlon’s), we see that female bosses have gone from 12% to 15% to 22% to 12%(WIP). Assuming that Cataclysm will have some more female bosses for us, perhaps there is a pattern – perhaps the number of female bosses is rising?
There – now isn’t that much better with more comprehensive and accurate numbers, based on research, logic, and common sense, rather than arbitrarily discarding bosses and removing them from the totals?
Of course, we could throw another spanner into the works and ask – do female beasts, elementals and whatnot “count” in terms of satisfying the desire for more female characters? Do we see these types of characters and bosses as influential enough, or are some of them seen as just female animals, rather than true characters. That is, how humanoid (in appearance and/or in actions and/or backstory and/or relationships) does a boss need to be in order to truly “count”? Mother Shahraz counts, for me, but I can’t tell you the female names of the TOC faction champions, or the female character in the Illidari Council (not that the males are any more memorable, but hopefully you see my point). Maexnna is a massive broodlord spider and I see her as a strong female character, despite not having a humanoid personality to be “strong”. But would others discount her because she is a beast and therefore can’t really be counted as a “character”?
Is that why Gevlon was discarding a bunch of elemental, mechanical, constructed (etc) bosses, because they don’t have personalities and therefore can’t be “characters”? I can basically see the logic, but that would make things incredibly complicated as to what constitutes a character, and we would end up striking so many bosses off the list. Would all the beasts go, and all of the barely memorable multi-boss characters? Should we limit it to the bosses that are actually from the lore, rather than thrown in as extras, not from the story, and only count the major players? Messy. But hey, as other commenters have said – counting up all of the male and female bosses and presenting it as “proof” that things are all good is really just sailing right over the top of the issue – so beasts vs elementals vs humanoids is probably entirely pointless, anyway.
If the argument is that Blizzard is turning the issue around, then Rades’ article is a lot more constructive than trying to squash numbers to fit a point (I missed that one in my reader, and found it because I was commenting on how much I loved Therazane and her Venus of Willendorf look, and Googled to see if anyone else felt the same. Therazane ROCKS. Pun intended).
What’s my opinion on the ratio and where it may or may not be headed? Well, I think that’s probably a post for another day. I really just wanted to attack the terrible math and glaring inconsistencies in the “data” that led to posting a conclusion that couldn’t possibly be accurate, numerically speaking. For all its math, I think it was quite pointless. And, by extension, so is this one (it just has more research to back it up). But that’s okay.. I found it fascinating to examine all of the bosses, many of whom I had forgotten, along with a lot of their back stories and side stories. Quite a pointless exercise, but very interesting nonetheless.
Possibly Related Posts:
| Print article |
This entry was posted by Keeva on January 25, 2011 at 7:07 PM, and is filed under Blogging, Community, Rants. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site. Comment Policy - Comments are welcome! I don't mind at all if you disagree with what I have to say here, provided that a) you are civil about it, and b) you do not try to dictate what I should or shouldn't be writing on my blog. This is my corner of the web, and I reserve the right to edit or delete comments that I deem to be offensive. |
- Tweets that mention Pink knickers part 2: Here are my own numbers — Topsy.com
- Why do you blog? Why do you subscribe to blogs?
- The Daily Quest: Dance Dance Revolution | WOWICIDE
- The Daily Quest: Dance Dance Revolution | BuyElectro.com
- The Daily Quest: Dance Dance Revolution | WoW Guides
- The Daily Quest: Making some observations | gQuit's WoWPress



My name is Emma and I live in Australia. I’ve been gaming on and off since I was about 11. I won’t tell you exactly how long ago that was, let’s just say long enough.
about 1 year ago
Good numbers, it’ll definitely be interesting to see how the naga-related raid will change the numbers for cataclysm, being a mostly matriarchal race (as far as I know).
about 1 year ago
Arguing for more female raid bosses(which in WoW are the “bad guys” as they are always insane and power hungry) seems a bit like wishing there were more female serial murderers imo…maybe one might consider the fact that at a subconscious level most people identify males as perpetrators of wrong doing rather than females. >.>
Edit: meant to add this as a new comment, sorry.
about 1 year ago
Well, you definitely got wound up, but hey, what’s wrong with indulging that on a holiday, right?
I personally wouldn’t have granted Gevlon the blog space because that only feeds his ego. He’s happy when he gets people riled up, I think.
about 1 year ago
I’m honestly not. Since I was challenged to present better numbers, I figured it would be an interesting project for the night. I like analysing things and reasoning.
I’m not angry or wound up at all
about 1 year ago
What a fun exercise! Seeing the bosses listed out was a nice little trip down memory lane.
I do have some more data to add for determining some bosses! You touched on it in the other post and more here, but having a typically masculine or feminine voice is generally enough to encourage perception of the boss as male or female (especially when the gender isn’t immediately obvious and therefore defaults to male).
So for the old gods C’thun and Yoggie, we get typically male voices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLCE18C6fKQ (c’thun)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVlOO7q_bj4 (yogg – although sara has a feminine voice, she is also clearly presented as female, whereas the tentacle creature has the masculine voice)
Thaddius, once you get past all the screaming of his component…parts, has a typically masculine voice (I know you labeled him as such but just to further support the point): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn4GYI8S3dU
Finally, the Curator also has a typically masculine voice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_Zu9EuRJg
red cow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
It was really tough at times, Curator was one that I really think is male, he has a basically male shape and voice, but I wanted to be “fair” and not impose too much of my own feelings on the choices. I wondered whether it was a bit much of a stretch because his male shape wasn’t quite as pronounced as others? It was a tough call. But that choice doesn’t affect the female ratio anyway, as it would be taking an “unknown” and transferring it to “male”.
The female screams in Naxx are so creepy. But anything that elicits a genuine shudder from me means that they have succeeded in creating something “real”. Like old god whispers, they freaked me out.
about 1 year ago
Listened to Thaddius again and got goosebumps.
Ugh *shudder*
about 1 year ago
Seriously…I’m so glad that when I raided Naxx I kept the sound way down in order to hear Vent!!
redcow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
I think it’s ambient noise, and I always have ambient noise turned right up, because I love the atmosphere in a lot of zones.
about 1 year ago
Especially since Cata’s release I’ve been listening to the in game sounds and music, but I still have to turn it way down in order to raid because it distracts me from Vent…I can’t listen to TV or music or even have a conversation, either! Too easily distracted…
red cow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
Honestly, I haven’t read half of this post, thought I’d kick in anyway (I hate people who starts a comment stating they haven’t read the blogpost! :p)
Haven’t tested this, but this macro should tell you the gender of any NPC in the game
/run local x=UnitSex(“target”);local g={“n unknown!”, ” boy!”, ” girl!”} n=GetUnitName(“target”);if IsShiftKeyDown()then SendChatMessage(n ..” is a” ..g[x],”SAY”);else print(n ..” is a” ..g[x]);end
about 1 year ago
Yes – that was posted in my other article, I’m going to have to take it for a spin. I want to go test the Lurker, at the very least.
It makes me think it will be like running around with a gender gun, zapping mobs.
about 1 year ago
Some of the choices were tough, particularly the mechanicals. They have that male body shape, some have obvious male voices, some don’t. I would say some people might see them as just “big robot”, while others will assign them a gender. That’s a tough call.
But luckily, again, that doesn’t affect our female mob calculations because it’s a question of whether it’s male or neutral, not male or female. So while I would love to be 100% correct on all the mobs, at least this doesn’t interfere with the purpose – to gather the female numbers.
about 1 year ago
Nice post. I like the trending numbers overall. For me, it makes it more interesting…unless it’s listening to Sindragosa threaten me. After a few wipes, I turned off the sound.
Ttrinity´s last blog ..Let’s play Cataclysm Wheel of Fortune-5 man heroic style!
about 1 year ago
Betraaaaaaaaaaaaaaays you!
The one I particularly hated was Lady Deathwhisper, when she says “..utter devotion of mind and soul” – the soul part bugged me a lot.
/tangent
about 1 year ago
What about ogres? They *look* distinctively male, and by doing some research, have found there is only one female noted in WoW lore. I’m pretty sure that ogres are not asexual.
about 1 year ago
With races like Ogres, Tuskarr, and Wolvar — where you never seem to find females living amongs the males, or even their presumed progeny — I have always assumed that their females were off hunting, gathering, or generally being “lost” a la the female Ents in Lord of the Rings. It really does seem like laziness that Blizzard continues to design great-looking new races … but only the male halves.
Phaelia´s last blog ..The Sprouted Seed
about 1 year ago
I agree, I always imagined that the females just weren’t around, that they were coincidentally absent whenever you turned up at their camps – again and again and again. Very elusive…
about 1 year ago
I honestly think that for most of these seemingly single sex species and people, the females are out there.. but it’s just not practical for Blizzard to make female counterparts for so many races.
We see them sometimes – like Naga and Centaurs etc.. but I think that it’s not so much that Blizzard intended them to share the same look, but that it’s impractical to put them in.
I wish they’d toss us some concept art or a confirmation that female ogres look just like the males! I know a lot of people want to know about that race in particular.
about 1 year ago
Great breakdown.
What strikes me as funny is that I actually always assumed that Magmothregar was a (very large, very masculine-looking) polyandrous female, and that the Mates of Magmothregar were male — possibly because I encountered the mates first. I am now guessing, however, that quest text indicates that the mob is actually male. I suppose that it’s possible that both are male, and “mate” isn’t meant in the sexually reproductive sense.
Phaelia´s last blog ..The Sprouted Seed
about 1 year ago
Yep, he’s a he in this quest.
However, there’s really nothing to say that the magnataur roaming around are males or females. I made the assumption that “mate of” was female, when I encountered them before doing that quest (I was lost), because (and I think this is quite telling, regarding our gender assumptions) “mate of” to me sounded like it was the mate of some important lord or figure, and that lord would be male. “mate of” as it.. not important enough to be named, just the lowly mate of (especially since there were many of them, so I assumed many females, one male).
Plus they were hanging around with babies, so they had to be female.
Those are the logical leaps that I made when I ran into these blatantly masculine looking mobs, and read their titles. I assumed they were second-class female mobs.
Pretty interesting.
about 1 year ago
“Magnataur live in prides, much like lions: one or two dominant males and several females along with their offspring. “, says the quest text.
There are Magnataur Huntresses who are thus female despite sharing the same hyper-masculine magntaur model. Gamomothra is named as male in the quest text, which seems alleviate any interesting questions about polyandrous or non-hetero groupings. Magmothregar is a “chieftan” – can Chieftans be female or is that a masculine title? (Honest question)
Narci´s last blog ..Druidis4fite- @KeevaTBJ Proto-blog- not prot-blog I would be the worst prot-blogger ever -D
about 1 year ago
Well, after looking up ogres, I see that there was a female ogre chief, so I guess it is possible… though again, I would argue that if someone saw a masculine-looking mob with the title “chieftain” they’re going to assume male, unless corrected.
about 1 year ago
I think there is a little bit of a hang up on voices. Any transgendered person will tell you that the timbre of someone’s voice (and maybe even their body type) do not define someone or something as male or female. I know this is silly, but what if the Curator identified itself as female regardless of how its voice was programmed. This obviously applies to male-looking non-robotic/abberation/demon/whatever bosses.
I’m just not entirely sure why this is become such a hot topic. His math was indeed grievously flawed but what I find odd is his reason for even making it a big deal in the first place. As I stated in the last post I don’t think WoW is a place for trying to pin down racist or sexist undertones and doing so just causes us to make things into bigger deals than they really are. For every semi scantily clad female body is a male model ripped from head to toe. I’m not saying the game is perfect by any means, but there are no characters in this game we really look up to or empathize with. For most single person games with a fleshed out hero or heroine those are generally the characters we identify with (e.g. you can have a very strong willed female Sheppard in Mass Effect which is the embodiment of a tough female lead).
The work you put into this post shows an impressive level of enthusiasm on the subject, i’m just not entirely sure why it is so important to correct him. His intentions however are more what I worry about, trying feebly to throw something in the face of feminists…to anger them possibly? This causes us to start classifying things into “sexes” and making it into a thing.
Jarre´s last blog ..Mana matters
about 1 year ago
If we are going to bring in trans* issues, then we might as well throw most of the data out, as body shape and (assumed…) genitalia are not often used as determiners of gender either. I understand that a typically masculine voice doesn’t indicate a man, but considering WoW’s complete lack of trans* characters I’d say they are very likely not suggesting androgynous characters and rather defaulting to one or the other.
It’s a hot topic because Keeva had the time to address the issue and wanted to do it. Since WoW is created by a racist, sexist, *ist society, it reflects a lot of those prejudices, and it can be interesting and illuminating to tease those out. It’s not for everyone, and some prefer to look at more immediately pressing issues like gendered violence or men’s vs. women’s paychecks, but that doesn’t make this discussion unecessary or frivolous.
And yes, there are unrealistic models of men in the game to match the unrealistic female models. (Pewter did a good roundup of these stereotypes) That doesn’t make the stereotypical female models ok, but rather makes both an important talking point on how WoW / high fantasy thinks that we should perceive our own gender representation.
red cow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
I agree – since the stereotypical male attributes I posted are common and now ingrained in our minds as how WoW males often look (and the same goes for female models), when presented with something with some or all of those traits, I believe that the average player will follow that path of least resistance and label it as male.
If there were female characters in the game with massive, booming, masculine voices, then no doubt we wouldn’t use that as such a clear indicator of something being male – but since it’s often reinforced, with bosses and key players having these big voices, then we have no reason to stop and ask whether it could be female.
about 1 year ago
I understand what you’re saying about the voices, but again my point is that the average player, without a bunch of bias, ingrained game bodyshapes, and without doing too much thinking, is going to hear these booming, gravelly voices and think “male”.
XT on the other hand caused a lot of confusion because it *wasn’t* the standard male voice. A lot of my guildies called it “she” because they thought it was an adult female voice rather than a juvenile male voice.
Curator was tough to define because although I believe he follows the male body type, it wasn’t *as* defined as others (because Curator-type mobs have that short, wide torso), and because the voice was far removed from the ultra-masculine voice acting of other mobs.
I personally think people would call him He, for sure. But I didn’t want to seem like I was just arbitrarily saying “his body looks kinda triangular, his voice is *basically* male, let’s make him male”.
I’ve had people strongly disagree with me already on some of the *very* obvious male bodies (ripped abs, pecs etc). And that’s fine.. not everyone will see it all the same way – but I am approaching it from an angle of “what would the general public consider this mob, if they had no lore, if they knew nothing – would they think of it as a male boss? If they had no idea what a construct was?”
Mechs are the worst, unfortunately, and this is where my math WILL vary – but, as I said, at least it varies only the unknown : male ratio, and doesn’t interfere with the female ratio, which is what we were trying to pull out.
I’m not sure why it was brought up, I don’t think it was being discussed much.. perhaps Gevlon was just looking at bosses and was inspired to write about it.
about 1 year ago
Havings gone on a date with Mother Shahraz a couple few years ago, I can stipulatify as ta what she be all woman.
Ratshag´s last blog ..Psshaw- You Say
about 1 year ago
Leave it to Ratshag to provide undeniable proof as to this mystery! /clap
Rades´s last blog ..Farewell Battleground- my friend
about 1 year ago
Discussion over!
Question is Ratshag, did you enjoy her company and conversation, or were you just in it for the extra arms?
about 1 year ago
Oh, I’s always in it fer the wimmenz theyselves. They’s all beautiful and sexy in they’s own way. Tricky part were finding an all-night drugstore what stocked shadow resist condoms.
Ratshag´s last blog ..Psshaw- You Say
about 1 year ago
You didn’t have to farm for several weeks to get them?
Just the thought would have killed the mood for me.
about 1 year ago
I think you missed out on High Astromancer Solarion and Al’ar in TK, otherwise quite thorough. (I’m pretty sure Solarion is female, Al’ar is probably “unknown” or male depending on the lore.)
about 1 year ago
No no, any that I didn’t write down, it’s because I agreed with Gevlon’s original assessment. The list would have been even more ridiculously long if I had included every boss, heh
I counted Al’ar as unknown – there’s a small mention of it being a male, but nothing concrete. Plus it flies around laying eggs, and it’s very pretty, so I have no doubt that many people assume it female.
about 1 year ago
Great followup post Keeva, you clearly put a lot of time and effort into your numbers. Also, thanks for the link!
Personally, I agreed with every one of your choices except the Void Reaver. I don’t remember if he has a male voice, but if he does, then he’s definitely male. But otherwise, when I see Fel Reavers I don’t see them as gendered, just as humanoid robots. It’s true that they have the triangular male body shape as you described, but I don’t feel they fit the archetype nearly as well as, say, Jaraxxus. And since there’s no lore, quest dialogue or behavior (that I know of) to indicate them as being anything other than robots, in my mind they’re just neutral. Just my opinion though!
Also, I found the focus on end result numbers interesting. I think it actually separates into two separate statistics here. 1) How much of the game’s content is female, and 2) What is the ratio of male to female content in the game?
I know you greatly disagreed with the 40% figure in Gevlon’s original post, about Cata raid bosses, because (logic errors notwithstanding) 40% of the raid bosses most definitely are not female. Your revised numbers show that only 12% of the bosses are female. To someone looking for the first statistic, this is crucial info.
However, if you’re looking at gender equality, the 40% and 12% numbers aren’t important at all by themselves – you need the male content % to compare. And your numbers do show that Gevlon’s figures have a 1.5:1 male/female ratio (60:40), while yours has a much larger 5:1 (73:12) male/female ratio.
Where this would get interesting is when the numbers were funky, like say 30% female, 10% male, 60% neutral. Someone looking for female content would be upset at there being “only” 30% female content, but someone looking for gender equality would see that there is actually 3x as many females as males in this sample.
I’m not sure if I’ve managed to convey my point – it’s sort of random? Regardless though, it’s always worthwhile looking at detailed statistics like you’ve compiled here. Thanks for the great food for thought.
Rades´s last blog ..Farewell Battleground- my friend
about 1 year ago
Very male – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajirsAyAH8E
The reavers and Curator were the hardest ones to assign, as I’ve mentioned a couple of times, because although I believe they fit that shape and voice, I could see how others may not. Curator has a soft voice and is pretty and pastel – I have to wonder if some people then assume he isn’t anything specific. XT was called “she” but so many people because it was a juvenile male voice, and it confused people.
I would possibly move the generic reavers out, because they just make noises, rather than speak – so they don’t have the masculine voice, nor do they have a name or a persona, so it’s possible that people just think “big robot” – where with VR, he has that big masculine voice.
Again though, musing over these types of changes doesn’t mess with the female percentages (though it would if Gevlon were doing the numbers), and that was the main object of the exercise.
And yep, I totally get your point about comparing to male content. If we do what Gevlon did and discount the unknowns, and only use the bosses that people perceive as male or female, then it’s:
Vanilla 84% : 16%
TBC 83% : 17%
Wrath 75% : 25%
Cata 86% : 14%
So slightly higher incidence of females, but fairly significantly high male percentages. Though this looks better in terms of how many females there are, I feel that overall it looks worse because it shows even more plainly that the overwhelming majority of raid boss characters are male. While it may show an upwards trend for the females, it’s still looking pretty dire if you glance at the male column.
Which is the better argument? I can see why Gevlon approached it the way he did, I think he is saying “all the stuff made of rocks won’t count, we only want to count the humanoids”, and by cutting out the rest, he’s examining the number of female bosses within this pool of humanoids. Perhaps presenting both sets of numbers would have made it look less as though he was manipulating the numbers for the best possible result. I really feel that you need to put those genderless bosses in so that people can get some perspective on the percentage of females out of ALL raid bosses.. but perhaps also show the spread within just the humanoids or bosses with definite genders.
Either way, the trend for females will be the same (just different figures, but the same direction), so if that is his main argument, that the problem is on the mend, then leaving out the genderless makes absolutely no difference.. but when we are asking “are there enough strong female characters”, then people are going to want to base that decision on the full data. If 80% of the bosses are genderless, 15% male and 5% female, then this is a much more well-rounded look at the numbers than saying 75% male, 25% female. Both are correct, but as you’re saying, you really need that perspective.
about 1 year ago
Yeah, I think that’s how Gev would defend not including the information about gender-neutral bosses. Sure, they mean that there are few female bosses, but they also mean that there’s fewer male bosses. Of course, this does nothing for English speakers because the default third-person word (for masculine or neutral people) is “he.” Whether or not I identify demons as males, I do think of them as sentient beings, so I call them by “he.” Same for constructs: they’re sentient beings, (often) with personalities.
In my opinion, we should just use Latin or some similar pro-neutral-as-a-gender language when raiding. That’ll solve all the problems.
Theladas´s last blog ..Review- Ef – A Tale of Memories
about 1 year ago
He spent most of the time with the list of bosses and very little time on his actual argument, perhaps because he thought the numbers would be conclusive and not need explanation?
about 1 year ago
Great post Keeva! My only niggle (and it’s a very small complaint) is that you classified Curator as unknown while Void Reaver as male, and they are in very similar gender situations as far as I’m concerned, so they should be classified consistently.
Jiyambi´s last blog ..Cataclysm Herbs- Were do I find them and how do I farm them the best
about 1 year ago
I’m still not sure why a male sounding voice means someone or something identifies themself as male. This is especially true of constructs or magical abberations whose voice is more than likely simply the whim of its creator and not representative of its identity.
Jarre´s last blog ..Mana matters
about 1 year ago
I think a male voice, while not indicating gender perfectly logically, makes it SEEM like something is male. If I see a robot shaped like R2D2 (genderless) that speaks with Sean Connery’s voice, is it male? Well no. But in my head and memory, I’ll always regard it as more male than female.
(There is of course the issue of “male-sounding” voices being possessed by females, but that’s really a different subject.)
Rades´s last blog ..Farewell Battleground- my friend
about 1 year ago
It was so hard. Curator has a soft voice, not the typical booming, masculine voice; I definitely identify it as a male voice, but it’s not the usual, and I wondered if that would cause some people to not see him as a male. His body type does follow the triangular shape, but not to the same extent as the others.
As I mentioned in comments above, I didn’t want to seem as though I was just tossing every single mob into the male pile with weak reasoning, yknow? He’s a toughie, and I fully admit that it was a very subjective call.
Again though, it doesn’t interfere with the female numbers, which is what I was trying to pull out.
The menagerie is for guests only.
about 1 year ago
I’m still really unsure, even listening to the very masculine VR voice.
I am sure many people would call him “he” by default, absolutely positive on that… but in their minds do they identify him as *male*? Or do they just see a giant robot?
The mechs are definitely where I am unsure and would not want to make grand statements.
I do, however, believe that I did a much more thorough job and was a lot more objective and logical. The numbers won’t be 100% because some people will disagree here and there. I’m not the authority on gender assignment in WoW.. I just tried to follow what I would consider to be the usual thought processes of the average player when faced with these bosses.
Some were easy – like Mother Shahraz. Curves, a definite female title that can’t be ambiguous, and a very feminine voice. She even flies into a stereotypically female rage when we “toy with her emotions” (being an emotional female).
Others were pretty hard, and I didn’t want to put them into the male pile if I really had to justify it, because I knew that would cause issues.
Certainly it’s not a case of “near enough is good enough” but I do hope that my numbers are a lot more accurate and useful.
about 1 year ago
A very thorough survey, I must say.
It’s actually very interesting to see it all out in one pile like that. I do like some of the commentary you’d add as you’d bring a boss up, informative AND entertaining, like always.
about 1 year ago
Why thank you
about 1 year ago
A very interesting read, and definitely very thorough!
Something that I don’t quite understand though is why demons can’t be counted as gender (as I think Gevlon claimed). I obviously don’t know demons first-hand, but what says that they can’t reproduce? Who knows what they do over there in that Twisted Nether!
I mean, look at the succubus – it’s clearly female, and if we look at the mythology behind it they were female demons praying on men. There were incubus who were the male counterpart preying on women.
Same for harpies, while one might argue that WoW harpies are not the same as the mythology – I think we can all agree that they borrow freely from various lores and mythologies – and harpies in their original mythology were decidedly female (listed as daugters of and sisters of..)
about 1 year ago
Here the repellent harpies make their nests,
Who drove the Trojans from the Strophades
With dire announcements of the coming woe.
They have broad wings, a human neck and face,
Clawed feet and swollen, feathered bellies; they caw
Their lamentations in the eerie trees.
Apparently in D&D monster manuals, harpies reproduce by stealing men and forcing them.
So while some races in WoW might have females that simply look identical (and we just don’t realise), harpies might genuinely be a single gender race.
This is an interesting article: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneGenderRace
about 1 year ago
I think you got trolled. I don’t read your blog any more because, though you are brilliant, you care way to much about what people think about you, and you get pulled in a million directions. People can pick on you till you spend hours of your life on pointless topics, getting so flustered and upset. Restokin Ftw. Good luck in the future. I like your writing style better…but this is insane…
about 1 year ago
I’m not flustered and upset – I said that straight up.
Someone said “well, where are your numbers?” – so I thought, hmm, could be an interesting exercise, I wonder what the *real* (or at least, the much more accurate) percentages are? And I’ll cite my sources so that people who are interested can check out the lore, too.
I am a passionate person, and once I get started on something, I like to do things thoroughly (which is why partly v2 of my guide took about 5 months). Honestly, it’s mostly not for anyone who is reading, or even to prove a point or to “win” on the internet – it’s because I like to write, I like to make pretty illustrations, and I like to analyse and pick things apart.
I wrote this article for me, not to prove anything to anyone else. Honestly, I believe many people avoid the whole topic, and I actually thought very few people would read it or care. I am extremely surprised that yours is the first comment poking fun at me over it. But, despite the fact that I was fairly certain most people wouldn’t care and *probably* wouldn’t read through the epic saga that I put together (though I tried to split it up with some pictures), I still wanted to do it as a personal project.
I’m sorry you’ve unsubscribed; I realise I can’t keep everyone happy, there’s bound to be plenty of people out there who don’t like my site or my writing. I’m not going to lose any sleep over that, nor am I going to fret over how I should “fix” my content to be less passionate. Though you might think my topics are pointless, other people enjoy them, and I enjoy writing them.
If I lose readers because I’m too passionate, and I write about stuff that isn’t resto-specific, that’s fine.
If you still want the info but not the editorial (or the rants), you could subscribe to restodruid.info, which will be more information and news-oriented, while TBJ remains my WoW commentary-cum-sounding board.
Thank you for saying I’m brilliant – despite the overall negativity of your comment, I found that really flattering.
about 1 year ago
While some people may unsubscribe, I actually found your blog due to your WoW/feminism posts, and they’re the reason I subscribed to you in the first place. Just saying.
Nonny´s last blog ..Also
about 1 year ago
Actually…same! And these posts are the reason why I continue to follow you! It was a cute flounce, though.
red cow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
Thank you! I’ve found some great blogs the same way, and I’m very glad.
about 1 year ago
I’m glad you’re here!
Also, you have an awesome surname
about 1 year ago
Postscript: my boyfriend thinks my entire blog is pointless and a waste of time.
In his eyes I spend hours of my life on pointless topics, regardless of how much value the community garners from them. And it really doesn’t matter, because I made this blog as an outlet for me, to write. Whether or not people rate them as “useful” isn’t terribly important, because they are valuable to me.
I’m not dense, I know that Gevlon is a massive troll, and writing that topic out of left field is pretty suspicious. Perhaps his numbers are down a little since he hardly ever posts goblin business tips anymore. And the troll comments are obvious too.
But – they give me an avenue. I’m not biting, I’m exploring.
Much like the fact that I really don’t have to justify myself to you (and no doubt some of my regular readers are shaking their heads at this point and thinking “stop, just ignore it, don’t pay it any mind”) but I’m not upset, I’m not flustered or angry. I just.. love to write.
about 1 year ago
Way to put words in my mouth.
about 1 year ago
You don’t think it’s a waste of time?
I wasn’t saying it in a negative way, like you were being a jerk about it.. just that from your point of view it was a time-waster.
At least that’s the impression you’ve always given me
about 1 year ago
I also agree with most of your assessments, but I did want to point out that during the encounter, Professor Putricide most definitely refers to Rotface as “He” making him a male, which I would assume his identical twin, would be male as well. I guess it would be easy to assign one as one specific gender and the other as neutral, but if you assign Festergut as neutral you should probably assign Rotface, Patchwork and Thaddius all as nuetral, because they are just different types of abominations which are made from 10 or more corpses
just my opinion though.
about 1 year ago
Oh, does he? I couldn’t find any dialogue on it.
The reason I put them down as neutral is because they are great big blobs with squeaky voices, whereas Thaddius has a very pronounced male form and a deep male voice. Patchwerk doesn’t look male, but does sound male and is referred to as male.
Thaddius is made out of women and children, so some argue that he is made of women and therefore is technically female – but it’s really not about what they’re constructed from, but how they appear to the average gamer.
Mechs and aboms have been the most difficult to assign.
about 1 year ago
Tangentially related, but I’ve had a few raiders refer to…the one on the right (Rotface? the one who goes PRECIOUS?! NOOOO!!!) as female because the voice is so high and cute. And possibly because ze is so concerned about hir puppy
red cow´s last blog ..Me update
about 1 year ago
Really? How bizarre!
about 1 year ago
Personally I’m with you. I think those are male, I was just thinking for consistency’s sake. But yea, at the end of the encounter when Rotface dies, Putricide yells “Terrible news, everyone, Rotface is dead! But great news everyone, he left behind plenty of ooze for me to use! Whaa…? I’m a poet, and I didn’t know it? Astounding!” It’s only one reference but the he is definitely there.
As for the people thinking you are wasting your time or getting bent out of shape, really? Why do they care? If it bothers them they don’t have to read, and for the majority of us, this is a very interesting topic (even if we could care less how many female bosses are actually in the game) It’s also very interesting seeing how different people view different bosses.. I always find it interesting that just because someone else feels like something is “stupid” or not worth their time, then it automatically means the rest of the population isn’t allowed to be interested in it either.
about 1 year ago
Ah, seems I didn’t look hard enough for dialogue!
about 1 year ago
Keevs you wrote down OS as 3 males and 1 female… its the other way around. 3 female twilight dragons and 1 male black dragon.
about 1 year ago
Tenebron is female, all of the others are male.
about 1 year ago
“Gormok Wants His Snobolds”
And OMG how can you assign gender without taking their feelings into account!
about 1 year ago
I didn’t know whether to plop this comment under this post or the next one, so I’m plopping it right here.
What I want to say is that I think that gender equality (and other social issues) do have a place in conversations about WoW. Just because “it’s a game” doesn’t mean that politeness (what some would call “political correctness,” that term is a whole ‘nother can of worms) should go out the window. And if this is something you feel strongly about, then that’s just freaking great and you should absolutely write about it. We need more conversation in the WoW blogosphere revolving around the issues of gender quality, race equality, transphobia, fat hate, ablism, and discrimination based on sexual orientation. We need more players to have discussions about this. We need more safe spaces in WoW, because it is one fun game and everyone should be able to enjoy it.
Keeva, a subscriber lost is a subscriber gained.
Pookies, The Gay Druid
about 1 year ago
Love this comment – this especially: “We need more conversation in the WoW blogosphere revolving around the issues of gender quality, race equality, transphobia, fat hate, ablism, and discrimination based on sexual orientation.”
I have been struggling with one thing in particular that is on your list – fat hate. I am an unskinny chick who plays WoW and the constant fat bashing in vent has really been getting to me lately. Problem is that I have been raiding with most of these fat bashers for a long time and rather than call them on it and bring attention to the fact that I am fat (because why would I be so offended if I weren’t?) I just laugh along with them. It’s geting old though and I am getting tired of it…
Sorry for the tangent. Keeva I absolutely LOVE your blog because of your well researched and intelligent posts. I don’t even play a druid!!
Keep up the great work!
about 1 year ago
Thanks Fieryangel.
I can appreciate that it’s hard to stand up for yourself in situation such as this, so I leave that to your discretion. But please don’t think that only a fat person would stand up against fat hate, because that simply is not true! Gays have straight allies, right?
Keep your chin up!
about 1 year ago
I agree with you, to an extent here Pookies, but I wish it was posted elsewhere, as I come here for the druids, not the drama.
about 1 year ago
Once again, Scarebear, nobody is standing over you and forcing you to read this particular article. Why would you not just skip it?
This is not my job, I am not obliged to write particular topics or I’ll come under review. I write what I want to write about, and sometimes that includes my own feelings on what some people describe as “drama”.
If you are annoyed that my blog includes these non-resto topics, you should either skip those posts, or, if you think they are too common, unsubscribe.
You really have no right to dictate to me (or any blogger) what I should or should not write about.
about 1 year ago
Thank you Pookies, what a great comment. Glad to have you here.
about 1 year ago
Bawww I love this comment so much! I totally agree and I hope that the WoW blog community continues to address these kinds of issues in addition to the common fare of gear, stats, and strats.
If you had a blog I would totally be reading it now *_*
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
I have to be honest, a few people have cited this as drama or controversy etc – I don’t even think I touched on the true gender issues, I am just documenting which bosses are female and which are male, mostly in order to get the numbers (because I disagreed with Gevlon’s).
I didn’t really have the room to comment on the underlying issue of whether or not these numbers and trends are good or bad and why.
I just wanted to fix the bad math!
It’s interesting though, that some people seem to immediately interpret these posts as me campaigning for more female bosses. I’m not saying that I don’t feel that way, but it’s not what I’m saying here and now, in this post – I’m just presenting the data.
There’s so much more that I could have gone into – particularly Gevlon’s bizarre comment at the end of his article that female raid bosses “cannot be placed with the intent to support sexist-patriarchal views”; the hyper-sexualised Eredar Twins hanging out in the Witches’ Sanctum would like to have words, as would Mother Shahraz hanging out in her Den of Mortal Delights.
I would like to actually draw up a table of notable female bosses, to see how many of them are actually memorable, and why they are memorable – either due to their own position and/or achievements, or whether they are propped up by their relationships with male characters.
And, along the lines of Gevlon leaving a lot of bosses out because they don’t really count, perhaps categorise them as notable humanoid/sentient bosses vs beasts, constructs, etc, to whittle the list down to characters, rather than simply a list of all bosses that are identified as female.
I think it would be interesting to really examine who our female villains are, what they’re all about, and whether people see them as strong characters in their own right.
Another interesting project for another day (unless someone else is already tackling that).
about 1 year ago
You know who confuses me?
Drahga Shadowburner.
Uses the male orc model (granted, shrouded head to toe in a robe and cowl), but has an apparently female voice. Which is apparently the same voice as that used by Valiona.
about 1 year ago
Hmm, I don’t hear a female voice when I listen to him. It’s a similar style to Milhouse Manastorm – doesn’t really fit the orc model (basing this off other orc voice acting), but more gnomish or small race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sH0KI_v_SM
But, considering just how deeply masculine many other voices in the game are, I can definitely see why some cause confusion. Like XT in Ulduar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56ZWfZNi4Q
Or Rotface
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puO8yTvlm7A&feature=related
about 1 year ago
TBH I wouldn’t say all the VoA bosses are male, hell multiple guilds I was in called Emalon Shimalon, as we weren’t actualy sure of its sex.
Also@ Majutsakai, Drahga is (I’m fairly sure) a female orcish name and seems female enough to me, could be some old orc with a funny voice tho…
about 1 year ago
I find that incredibly bizarre..
http://www.pr-gaming.com/plugins/bosssuite/games/WoW/images/bosses/big/emalon.gif
Look at the massive beard and moustache! Did they think the plaits were pigtail braids or something?
about 1 year ago
Typically, “male” is my default title because when I go up against a boss that, when engaged, will speak lines, it’s just awkward to say “IT’S going to use X ability and then do Y.”
about 1 year ago
Agreed, using “it” is jarring.. but I do believe that people will often assume bosses are male. After all, most bosses *ARE* male, so it’s often a safe bet.
But as I mentioned, some of my guildies very deliberately labelled lich NPCs as “she” because of the dress-like effect of their clothing..
about 1 year ago
I’m totally keeping an eye on this blog now.
I loved seeing this discussed in such detail… I was just discussing with several people the other day how single-gendered so many models seemed in WoW and how they almost ALWAYS (almost being key word here) slanted towards a male body over a female. Even Taunka, the females were just female Tauren models, not an updated look. The Rhamaken seem to all have a male model, despite it being said that they have had several generations so one assumes there are females somewhere… but none of them are referenced specifically. It’s incredibly annoying to me. It took me forever to drill into my raid’s mind that Razor in Ulduar was female. I had to go “She’s freaking the protodrake that had a nest and you had to go subdue her for Thorim to get again! She’s female! She’s just been tortured!” And then they all went “WHAT!? We’re having to kill her?!? That sucks.” Suddenly, knowing who she was, they cared. It makes me die a little how much some raiders just don’t pay attention to why or who they’re killing. It makes the game so much less powerful to me.
Anteia´s last blog ..Nazis in WoW- Putting the Historical into the Fictional Fantasy
about 1 year ago
How on earth can people go through that quest line and not pay attention to the giant nest, Thorim bonding with her again after so long apart, then meeting up later and seeing them both captured and taken off to Ulduar.. argh! Lore rage!
about 1 year ago
Equally distressing, I think, is the frequency with which I’ve seen Keristrasza referred to as “he”.
I mean, even if you DIDN’T do this excellent quest line, her NAME should tip you off if nothing else.
about 1 year ago
Wouldn’t be a problem if she hung around in human form with her butt showing through her see-through cape, a la Alex.
about 1 year ago
English doesn’t have a gender-neutral pronoun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_English) which is the core of the problem.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_(pronoun)
If english did have a gender neutral pronoun, would we use that for some of the gender neutral bosses?
How do WoW players that use a language with a gender-neutral pronoun refer to the characters in the game?
I’m sure if you looked, there would be academic research about gender perception being applied to non-human and human-like objects that would shed some light on this issue.
Also, we apply our race-specific construct of gender to these imagined races, while in reality sexual dimorphism has widely varying effects in different species. It could be that yeti are all built like bricks because evolution didn’t favour physical disparity between the sexes. Like, imaginary evolution.
about 1 year ago
I’d be really interested to know how players with gender-neutral pronouns refer to those gender-neutral bosses. I find that idea fascinating. I can only assume that we would use one, if we had one. “It” proves too jarring for most people, so the default is “he”, most of the time. Sometimes that is because people really do see something as male, but in some cases I imagine it’s just easier than saying “it”.
Someone needs to write up some mock notes on mob evolution, and why they have the traits that they have!
I also find “species as gender” really interesting – like assuming all dogs are male and all cats are female. I think that happens in WoW, but generally people lean towards male. I’m wondering if any of the humanoids like yetis etc would evoke an immediate “that’s female” response from me (I can’t think of any off the top of my head).
about 1 year ago
Actually, I was taught by a TG friend of mine to refer to them as the singular ‘they’ as mentioned in that wikipedia article. They found it the easiest way to get their friends to avoid stumbling over the “he err she” stuff, as ‘It’ is often used as a derogatory reference to androgeny or gender ambiguousness.
about 1 year ago
I always feel as though I’m committing a crime against grammar when I use “they” to refer to a single person
about 1 year ago
Its pretty much the best of a bad lot, and I felt the same when I started using it, but most people I know who’ve discussed it thing that Hishey or Hir and the various other ‘mashups’ sound worse, and It has the derogatory aspect.
about 1 year ago
Gevlon has posted a response, wherein he surprises everyone here by announcing he was deliberately trolling (doesn’t take a super sleuth, really).
I’m not going to bother commenting, because the article is just a second helping of tripe from the other day, with lots of hilariously ironic statements such as I’m biased and making my biases and data fit my argument (wow, considering his “analysis” I wouldn’t be game to make that jab at me), and says that all of my male/female stuff is nonsense, that I made ALL of the bosses male to suit my cause (clearly didn’t read it in full), and then I “whined” about the injustice of it all.
And, it seems, he still believes that 40% of Cataclysm bosses are female. He actually believes that absolutely terrible data and analysis that he presented.
His proof that the mobs aren’t male (after shooting me down for just using personal bias to label mine, because voices, bodies, and lore text is not reliable ever) was to quote from a biology textbook to educate me on what makes a man a man, and then he went on to state that demons (etc) cannot (scientifically speaking) be considered male because they don’t have the biological makings.
And from this, of course, we come to the conclusion that any boss that is not a sexually reproducing boss “doesn’t count”, and can’t be considered male. Rippling abs, massive beard, booming voice.. not male at all.
I got splained good.
Were I to post a rebuttal, it would simply be this:
http://derailingfordummies.com/#surprise
Speaks for itself, really.
about 1 year ago
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=11492
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=17000
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=7666
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=19747
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=26533
Not a male: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=15690
Not a female: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=25166
Not a female: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22947
Not a female: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=33515
Not a female: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=18663
Just FYI.
about 1 year ago
http://www.wowpedia.org/Shivarra
Despite these being described as females, modelled as females, voiced as females, and referred to in-game as females, according to Gevlon’s facts, this is not enough to be recognised as a female mob, because it is a demon, and demons are not a sexually reproducing race. And because in-game and lore references are hearsay.
Honestly, where’s the common sense?
about 1 year ago
My goodness! How hilariously trite. I know that some people in your first thread were giving him a rather charitable reading of his intentions, but at least now I know that the reason I never read his stuff in the first place is still true. Hopefully all that mansplaining he did got him some more hits, poor dear.
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
Yeah.. when someone said “you got trolled”.. I was like, no s#%t? Colour me surprised. It’s what Gevlon does.
Soooo much mansplaining.
And his whole argument that I’m stupid because I’m basing my assumptions on what I see is completely undermined by the fact that he classes a bunch of his bosses by what he sees, and NOT by his “science and logic”.
So much logic fail, soooooo much.
But he would have got traffic out of it, and that was the object of the exercise after all.
On the other hand, I got some awesome conversation, some new blogs to read, made some new friends, had fun researching and analysing data, and I’ve come away feeling richer for it.
about 1 year ago
I think the problem with your assumptions is that they are based on your ~feminine emotions~ and not cold hard man-logic. Or as I have heard it said, “Could you rephrase your statement in the form of a man.”
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
He talks about science and logic being the only way to get the real answers… gametes blah blah… but then happily accepts a bunch of demons while excluding others, and he assumes that flamewakers reproduce sexually.
Dum dee dum, SCIENCE
about 1 year ago
And, of course, he still doesn’t “get” what the feminist argument is anyway. Thaddius is a great big dude with ripped abs, a square jaw, and a booming voice. Technically he can’t reproduce and he’s made out of women, but I would put money on 100% of people counting him as a male boss.
And since we’re asking whether there are too many males and not enough females, then that is relevant.
Insert a whole bunch of anti-feminist handwaving and calls of “bias! bias!” here.
about 1 year ago
Gevlon is so totally condescending and full of himself. I have taken him out of my feeder… Good riddance!
Keep up the good work
about 1 year ago
Its interesting, on Gevlon’s new blog post, he’s moderating comments, and while he’s added new ones and replied to them since I posted, for some reason my comment isn’t coming up.
about 1 year ago
I wanted to reply, to tell him that my main reason for writing my posts was to point out the inconsistencies, contradictions, the exclusions (three entire raid dungeons in Vanilla) and the terrible math, not so much my “feminist agenda”. I wanted to ask him if he did all of those things deliberately as part of the bait – because that’s what made me respond, not the underlying feminist issue.
That he did his list (badly, in my opinion), and while the basic message that females were increasing was correct, he skewed the numbers and then made it seem like Cataclysm was 40% female raid bosses, which was sloppy and deceptive. That’s what I took issue with, not whether or not there should be more female bosses.
And I explained that in my posts, that the main issue was all the mistakes and the awful math.. but I won’t bother posting because I know he’ll just dribble on about socials and ape subroutines at me and tell me how I played into his clever plan.
about 1 year ago
He has also moderated me in the past, so I doubt mine would even get through – unless he wanted to make an example of it.
As an aside, I think it is highly disrespectful to call another blogger a “specimen”.
about 1 year ago
His logic is also infallible:
@Squishalot: How does flamewaker come to be?
Elementals are spawned from their plane (water elementals from water itself). Old gods are eternal, always been here. Constructs are built. Demons are like elementals from a demonic plane.
So unless you claim flamewakers to be one of those, only one option left, reproducing species.
Edit: this comment demonstrates his ignorance of the lore (and why he was quick to dismiss my research as nonsense). A 5 second search on demons would tell you that demons are often mortals turned into demons; and following his earlier logic if something was once a sexually reproducing species, then it totally counts when it’s a demon or undead, then such demons (mortals to demons) count, too.
He counts Razor, but doesn’t count Maexxna.
Female constructs are obviously “meant” to be female (yet, his whole new argument is that “meaning to be” female is not enough, you have to BE female), and male constructs are neutral. NOTE: When I make outrageous comments about a mob “obviously meaning” to be male or female, he mocks me (in fact the entire article is about how stupid it is to make assumptions about mobs “obviously” being one sex or the other.. so he undermines his entire piece with his assessment of Auriaya).
Tidewalker, a giant, “seems” to be a sexual race, so we’ll let him be male. Ignis, another giant, is neutral. What happened to the idea that it is ridiculous nonsense to assume gender based on what the mob “seems” to be? Hmm.
Flamewakers must be sexually reproductive because they’re not any of the other categories. Science by deduction.
Jaraxxus, a demon, is counted as male, as are the Eredar Twins and Kil’jaeden, but not other demons. Wait – what’s that, because they used to be plain old mortals? So where does that leave us on all the other demons?
He just makes stuff up as he goes along (and then criticises me and says that my reasoning is rubbish!)
So many inconsistencies and contradictions, yet he sees himself as an authority. Or, he likes to make deliberate contradictions to goad people for the sake of it. Like I said, I think business is a little slow, need to do some trolling in earnest to pick up the numbers.
about 1 year ago
I would really like to question him on some of the points I made above, giant vs giant, construct vs construct, demon vs demon.. but I know my comment would get moderated.
about 1 year ago
From part 2:
“My major problem while fighting social behavior is that the social readers find their own social nonsense obvious”
“I figured out that socials only find their own nonsense “obvious truth”"
“Why ogres “are” they male? Because having “obvious” male body maybe?”
“The point of this post is not to bash feminists. It’s to use them as examples to prove that “obvious” and “common sense” is nothing more than echoing social biases.”
One of his main arguments is that I argued that a lot of bosses were “obviously” male or female, and that this is social nonsense and completely biased. He thinks it is nonsense for people to make judgments based on what’s “obvious” to them, because that is not necessarily what is “obvious” to everyone.
This is really interesting, considering what he said in Part 1:
“Auriaya, she is a titanic watcher, a creation, so technically does not have sex, but the titans (and the developers) created her to exactly mimic a female, obviously on purpose”
about 1 year ago
OMG!! I’m laughing so hard at this. Feminists are just so biased – it’s not like part of their whole philosophy is talking about latent social biases and how to counteract them, oh no. Not to mention that you yourself acknowledge that your categorizations are based on those biases, but don’t make a judgment call as to whether those biases are good or bad. Just because Gev is trying to come off as knowledgeable by ignoring common gender-assumptions and using his own peculiar assumptions doesn’t make him better…
Blizzard is made by privileged dudes and caters to privileged dudes. It makes sense to interpret the genders of their characters in the manner that a privileged dude would.
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
I’m afraid you’ll need to edit your post, saying “it makes sense” is against the rules, too! It’s just biased nonsense.
about 1 year ago
Wait no I have drawn a pie chart and bar graph to support the sense-making now we have ~facts~
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
Nice article, I enjoyed reading it and it’s companion, but reasoning with Gevlon is a lost cause!
about 1 year ago
“The default gender in the game is male.”
The most probable cause of the default gender is the supposed default gender within the gaming industry.
The supposed gender; we perceive the gaming industry as an environment populated by male nerds in black T-shirts. Never mind if it’s untrue – it’s easier to look at it that way.
Nerds and computer geeks who never played football but stayed indoors with D&D.
The greatest challenge for the gaming industry is not the equilibrium in gender portraits of virtual characters, but how to break the false image of an industry of men, by men, for men. Geek men. You know, the D&D gamers, those who didn’t play quarterback, those who disliked jocks. The ones who went and made “computer games”.
The “problem” is international. There’s a constant debate going on amongst both prolific and non prolific gamers in Sweden (my country) about the imagery, game standards, gender-related questions in games etc etc.
Anyhow, you just made my feed. Looking forward to other posts (found you through Wow Insider, btw).
about 1 year ago
Thank you! Hope you enjoy it here
about 1 year ago
FYI: I went macroing through Tanaris: all of the ogres are male. Note: I am not “whining” about this, merely stating a fact.
Then I headed to Molten Core.
Hounds are all male (including Magmadar)
All elemental bosses are “unknown” (Garr, Baron, Golemagg etc)
Best of all though, and the main reason I went on this trek: Ragnaros is MALE. And to back up the body type, the voice, the title, and the macro result, Majordomo introduces him as male.
So stick those gametes in your pipe and smoke them.
about 1 year ago
Hi, just wanted to say thanks for a great, in-depth post. This brought back memories of me pulling out my hair in vent saying, “***SHE*** will cast flame breath. Do you people not know who Onyxia is?!?!?!”
I also want to add an observation:
I ran Mauradon about 30 times on all my Lvl40 toons, and like clockwork, in Almost Every Single Group, someone had to make a comment about how ‘pretty’ Theradras was. It was weird b/c female bosses aren’t normally commented on, but almost none of the groups could let an ugly female get away unacknowledged. In contrast, I’ve never seen this kind of reaction to male bosses that are particularly ugly or gruesome. (Like Festergut, etc.)–only ones that don’t have typical masculine features (like XT’s voice).
It’s interesting that with many bosses that are female, a lot of players will forget it’s gender unless given some huge clue (giant breasts, a clearly female name or title–then again, I thought OnyxIA was a clearly female name for a black dragon). But once a female boss has certain features like has breasts and is fat and doesn’t have a pretty face, oh, they’ll remember that SHE doesn’t look the way women are supposed to (and hence the sarcasm of her being ‘real pretty’.)
Frozenstar´s last blog ..Closing the Gender Gap
about 1 year ago
If I had to compile a list of bosses and their gender I would had came with something very similar to your list.
I read both of your posts before reading Gavlon’s posts, and I have to admit most of the things that you deem “common sense” seemed obvious to me too.
But this is were we ( I take the liberty to write “we” since both of us held the same perspective) are at fault, we let our own bias overcome our better judgment.
“Male” ans “Female” has a definitions, a boss either fit one definition or not, we don’t get to make the definitions as we go.
e.g if I would ask you to classify shapes to triangles ans rectangles and showed you a circle don’t come and tell me it’s a rectangle because it’s more rectangle-ish then triangle-ish. A circle is neither a rectangle nor a triangle. And classifying it as a rectangle is bluntly wrong, a circle doesn’t have the same properties as a rectangle.
Things that don’t fall into the definitions of “male” and “female” shouldn’t be coerced into one by our perception.
Maybe doing so part the problem and not the solution O.O
about 1 year ago
Meh, I call bullshit on changing the intended purpose of a blog post after it has some interesting effects on the net. Gev was trying to first rile feminists to counter examples elsewhere (because equality among raid bosses doesn’t mean bollocks in terms of equality as a whole) – he never expected to be proven wrong on his own ground. And, of course, big man can’t ever be wrong – must mansplain the truth to you (fyi, that may be my new favorite word – thank you).
I mean, if anyone can post-mortum claim that they were trolling, isn’t the game over for every discussion ever? “Oh ho ho, you thought my posts were srs but I was actually trolling YOU! lawlz!” No one ever needs to accept responsibility.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
Theladas´s last blog ..Review- Ef – A Tale of Memories
about 1 year ago
I don’t doubt he planned it all along, but this still applies:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#surprise
about 1 year ago
@Theladas
You can (should!) second guess Gevlon and his motives, but you shouldn’t ignore ideas “just because”.
Gevlon chose a rather nasty way to convey he’s message, but it was well played.
The idea is: we are “pushing it” with the definitions of male and female thus the definitions are too subjective and we have to be careful how we generalize them.
I am entitled to my subjective opinion, let call it Bjorn-male-ish.
I can define Bjorn-male-ish as bosses that I perceive as “pseudo-males”.
The list of Bjorn-male-ish bosses will include XT that always seemed male to me and even flame leviathan because the male voice acting.
Does that mean the next time I go to my car I should refer to it as a “he”?
You can define Theladas-male-ish the same way, do you think that any one will make any fuss if both our definition won’t concur?
The subjectivity is baked into the name.
The only thing is to understand when ppl write “male” and really mean “Theladas-male-ish”.
When Keeva wrote “male” she really meant Keeva-male-ish, and Gevlon just “called it”.
We shouldn’t cavil how Gevlon labeled each boss, but grasp the idea that our list it subjective to, and we shouldn’t get stubborn and fight over it like it is some undisputed truth.
about 1 year ago
The irony though is that he is the one fighting over it like an undisputed truth, while I am the one saying “but this one is a bit odd so we can’t really say for sure” or “I think most people would probably interpret it as male”.
He’s the one quoting biology texts at me and saying that we can only get the “right” answer with science and logic, but he is undeniably WRONG in places. He is stating that the males must be organisms, and if not an organism (with gametes), then it absolutely cannot be male.
I went and tested Ragnaros, and he is male (aside from all of the other factors that say he is male). But he is an elemental lord, with no reproductive capacity. Not an organism. I also tested male and female demons and got male and female answers. So Gevlon’s infallible “science and logic” is not right – yet he is trumpeting it as right and me as just using my feminist biases and social nonsense to make arbitrary judgments, and trying to make me look stupid. All the while he is the one doing exactly what he is criticising – stubbornly holding onto what he believes is true despite what has been proven.
I understood his intent, but it backfired badly on him; he is the one who is acting like the authority and being stubborn on his definitions, whereas I’m the one offering up opinion and reminding people that their mileage may vary.
He is mocking me for making these nonsense judgment calls, yet he makes a judgment call on elementals and demons that is based in complete ignorance, AND in his original post, he made judgment calls to say that giants probably reproduce so they can be counted, and Auriaya was “obviously” modelled after a woman so she is meant to be female (sound a bit like my argument???) – he has done exactly what he is trying to mock me for. It’s quite funny.
Had he left out his “science” and his “proof”, and just argued his point without trying to seem right on the definitions, then it would have supported him much better. As it is, though, he made himself look pretty dumb by demonstrating the EXACT behaviour that he is criticising in his dumb “socials”!
about 1 year ago
“The difference between making a mistake and being social is that you can easily prove me that I’m wrong by logic while you can’t do it to a social, as he finds his own bias more important than the truth, and ready to tell it loud. “
My emphasis!
about 1 year ago
Of course, if anyone accused him of this, he would say “Oh, that was just a mistake, anyone can make mistakes, I’m not so stubborn that I won’t change it if someone corrects me”
but the fact remains that in his second article he is basically saying NO, Ragnaros can NEVER be a male, he cannot reproduce, and neither can the demons, you are WRONG and science is RIGHT.
If he hadn’t spouted that crap about gametes and organisms, he would have had a much stronger case against me, and wouldn’t have made himself look stupid.
about 1 year ago
I’s still tryin’ ta figger where he came up with that “elementals, demons, etc ain’t organisms” claim.
organism (n) 1. a form of life composed of mutually interdependent parts that maintain various vital processes.
Cain’t possibly be male ’cause ya ain’t got functioning balls. Cain’t possibly have functioning balls ’cause ya ain’t an organism. Cain’t possibly be an organism ’cause I said so and I used the word “science” in an earlier paragraph so I must be right.
Ratshag´s last blog ..Keep A Sharp Lookout- Lads
about 1 year ago
Ratshag! You can’t say balls in this blog! Goodness!
about 1 year ago
I’m kind of amazed that the concept of npcs reproducing is such a huge factor in their gender. In the real instance, do you start calling a man “woman” or “it” if he is sterile? And when Blizz designed Ragnaros or whatever, do you really think they said “this guy here, he has some huge nuts and can have A MILLION BABIES” or did they just know he was male because they didn’t explicitly state he was female?
But really what I came here to pass on was this comic which is sort of old but still makes me laugh (in sadness):
http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444
red cow´s last blog ..Commenting on Controversy
about 1 year ago
well its ok if there is a lack of females boss’s and mobs in game. The overall population of alliance toons is female. So it makes up for it.
about 1 year ago
I do like this study more, but sex is not gender. Male and female are terms used for defining sex. Gender, characteristics which you accurately described, uses a different set of terms (masculine, feminine, man, woman, etc) when one tries to scientifically evaluate my loot vendors.
about 1 year ago
I did mention that briefly in my first article.. I’ve tried not to mess that up, but it’s difficult and I have probably tripped up in places. Plus, Gevlon seems to be talking about sex, where I am talking about gender, but I slipped back into talking about sex because that was what he was basing his judgments on – and so it gets messy.
Hopefully I haven’t offended anyone. I hope not, at least.
about 6 months ago
Very good post. Id like to use some of this information on my blog if you dont mind, and Ill provide a link back to your site. Ill also be subscring to your blogs RSS feed.